Gifford (and others) Shooting

IdleRich

IdleRich
I'm not disagreeing, I'm just wondering about how amendments to the constitution are seen. And if they're accepted don't they mean that there is a recognition that the Constitution is far from perfect? Which makes sense, should a modern democracy be run according to a document that is more than 200 years old? When they mentioned bearing arms they weren't talking about a Glock Automatic or whatever it was.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
the constitution regarding separation between church and state...
you know when i went to middle and high (i was for a lot of it) school every morning the students are made to say the "pledge of stupid fucking allegiance" yeah?
and you now it includes the line "one nation under God", right?

but that's just one small part of my point anyway. i'm looking at the BIGGER PICTURE here.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Now she's complaining about blood libel.

To save time all stories about her should just read "idiot says something stupid".
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
the constitution regarding separation between church and state...
you know when i went to middle and high (i was for a lot of it) school every morning the students are made to say the "pledge of stupid fucking allegiance" yeah?
and you now it includes the line "one nation under God", right?

Which, as The Onion points out, was added in 1954.

but that's just one small part of my point anyway. i'm looking at the BIGGER PICTURE here.

OK, we get the point - no-one here is sticking up for America per se or saying its govt has never done terrible things or allowed its citizens to do terrible things. And no-one's denying that the USA has always been a principally Christian country. All I'm saying is, the religious Right's attempts to inveigle explicit Christianity into the country's legislation is ahistoric and represents a movement away from the founding principles of secular government. There is no Church of America the way there is a Church of England. The early colonies were founded in large part by members of minority sects fleeing persecution in Britain, after all.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
But what is the bigger picture? Simply that lax gun laws + hate speech from leaders + nutter = spree kiling?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I'm always amazed by the extent to which in the US people are able to publicly say things which are demonstrably untrue without any consequence whatsoever - eg with the health thing when they were putting it about that Stephen Hawking would never had made it to adulthood if he'd grown up in England. I mean, it happens everywhere but isn't there some legal recourse to stop people telling actual, clear lies for their own profit in the political sphere - as happened here with Woolas say?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well thats not the official story now is it.

Yeah, cos 17th century England was one big collectivist commune. :rolleyes:

What's amazing is that so much of the stuff Jesus supposedly said is basically socialist anyway - but the way some of these arseholes in America go on about the evils of socialism, you'd think they'd be less offended if you said he'd been a kiddy-fiddler.
 
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Sectionfive

bandwagon house
Not %100 but I think the Pilgrims actually set up a 'communal' type society when they originally got to America.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Not %100 but I think the Pilgrims actually set up a 'communal' type society when they originally got to America.

I was thinking maybe they'd mistaken Cromwell for a communist (dumb, but you could almost see where they were coming from), but the Mayflower was 16fucking20 (thanks wiki) and James the fucking I. I mean......

*goes back to toaster*
 

zhao

there are no accidents
horseshit

naive little crackerjack.

if ever you choose to look closer, and if you dare believe your own eyes rather than what people in positions of power tell you.

you will see that the criminality, injustice, and lies.

are not exceptions.

but the rule.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I just think it's precisely those reasons that will make her a viable candidate and will get her in. It's her not backing down, it's her resistance, if you like, that will see her all the way through.

no. not only is she loathed by many, many - both personally and as the embodiment of the stereotype zhao is so wildly expounding upon - but more importantly, the thought of her scares the hell out of even more people, including a not inconsiderable portion of the right. the saner portion, you know david brooks & all that, as well as plenty of people who are fiscally conservative but socially liberal, not to mention anyone who calls themself a moderate. there's also the question of whether the gop would be stupid/crazy enough to let her run in the first place, after the fiasco with mccain. i doubt it, the party heads have got to know she's nowhere near their best shot to unseat obama, who'd I suspect would be overjoyed if she was his opponent.

I reckon she does have smart people around her tho. I just also reckon they're not setting her up for a presidential run, just to continue being queen of the american right wing. the whole "resistance", maverick bit is largely a manufactured image, albeit a well-done one, more evidence of the skill of her handlers.

Sarah Pallin is a true American. She is the living embodiment of the qualities, ideas, convictions and faith that the Best Country On Earth was founded and built upon...

we are talking about...

so, 2 things. first, every powerful country or empire in history has grown powerful by injustice at home & abroad. that's how power is accumulated and empires are forged. the difference is that nowadays, unlike in the times of Rome or the Hundred Years War or the Ming dynasty, being a conqueror is in bad taste so Americans don't like to admit that their empire had as unpleasant a founding and rise as any other. the hypocrisy of it is galling, I admit, but hardly unique. the second point, perhaps more important, is that your view of U.S. - from your far-off expatriate's perch - is nearly as distorted as, indeed, Sarah Palin's. all the things you named - segregated cities, rampant inequality, and so on - undoubtedly exist, sometimes with awful frequency, but they are hardly the entire picture and to claim otherwise is to surrender to all the worst aspects of this country and those who would enshrine and further them. not that I don't understand your sentiments, because I grew up with and still have sometimes feelings even more vitriolic than your own, but there's a difference between venting spleen and appraising reality.

it should go without saying that this isn't an argument in favor of empires or for that matter, the U.S., simply a check on hyperbole about the "greatest country" etc which is, all said & done, as complicated and complex a place as any other, that cannot be reduced any single vision.

but isn't there some legal recourse to stop people telling actual, clear lies for their own profit in the political sphere

there is, but as you mostly likely know the libel laws in the U.K. are famously much, much stricter - that is, far more generous to the plaintiff - than they are here.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
if ever you choose to look closer, and if you dare believe your own eyes rather than what people in positions of power tell you.

just so we're clear, you do realize that this is exactly the same thing that crazy right wing dudes say? I feel like you're a heartbeat away from referring to "sheeple".

also, one more thought on Palin feasibility. I know it seems bad, and it is, but you have to remember that the Tea Party types are very loud, and that the whole movement is in large part, or at least was initially, manufactured by extremely media-savvy Republican political operators (i.e., astroturfing), both things which contribute to it seeming like Sarah Palin & her ilk have far more support than they actually do. granted, the hard core of that support is utterly fanatical, but it's also rather marginal and absolutely not widespread enough to win her a presidential election unless she was to seriously tone down her rhetoric to attract regular conservatives and moderates, which would in turn alienate that hard core, hence a Catch 22. I wouldn't give her no chance, it's just a serious long shot.
 

zhao

there are no accidents

twisted evil bitch.

“We will not be stopped from celebrating the greatness of our country and our foundational freedoms by those who mock its greatness by being intolerant of differing opinion and seeking to muzzle dissent with shrill cries of imagined insults,”

presenting her and hers as the the voice of dissent... convoluted obfuscation such as this designed to confuse and excite the wall-eyed mouth-breathers who follow her, inspiring greater heights of delusional righteousness...

and classic evil shit like this:

quoted former President Ronald Reagan as saying that society should not be blamed for the acts of an individual. She said, “It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.”

is simply wrong, WRONG, WRONG.

i pray that her and her kind will burn long before entering hell.
 
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