Reinvestigating 9/11

Z

zhao

there are no accidents
crackerjack said:
killing thousands of your own citizens.
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this alone is IMHO no object to the powerful elite who call the shots in america. i am perfectly certain that they don't give a damn at all about the poor, and not much at all for the middle class either. i'm not saying they did this, but i am saying that it is not unimaginable that they would.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
zhao said:
i am perfectly certain that they don't give a damn at all about the poor, and not much at all for the middle class either.
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A fair point, but how many of the 9/11 victims were "poor"? I should imagine many of them were pretty rich - perhaps members of the very same "powerful elite who call the shots"...
 
slowtrain

slowtrain

Well-known member
Only marginally related, but when i saw this I just couldn't resist:

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B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
zhao said:
this alone is IMHO no object to the powerful elite who call the shots in america. i am perfectly certain that they don't give a damn at all about the poor, and not much at all for the middle class either. i'm not saying they did this, but i am saying that it is not unimaginable that they would.
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I totally agree with this - as said earlier, the reason the conspiracy theories fail is that it would just be an absurd exercise to carry out such a massive attack, and impossible to cover up (unlike say, the assassination of one man). Anyone who's studied politics at all knows that its history is governed by massive fuck ups - the idea that you could have a conspiracy theory involving 100s and keep them all quiet, is a 1 000 000 - 1 shot at coming off.

But no, I don't think certain elements within the US government give much of a shit about citizens' lives in the abstract. Same for the UK government, or, well, most governments.
 
C

crackerjack

Well-known member
baboon2004 said:
But no, I don't think certain elements within the US government give much of a shit about citizens' lives in the abstract. Same for the UK government, or, well, most governments.
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No, probably not. But it's fair to assume that some of the hundreds (thousands?) of people Lanugo would like to charge with planning and executing this operation would give something of a shit. And given the background of the people killed that day, I'd guess they'd care a lot more about WTC than Buttfuck, Idaho.
 
pattycakes_

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty
crackerjack said:
Thing is, this seems pretty uncontroversial to me - the Aden war mightn't be top of the history syllabus but the idea that it (and Suez and Iran '54) is a secret that no one ever talks about is just plain wrong (as its appearance in the centre of a BBC documentary indicates). It's also a long, long way from false-flag operations killing thousands of your own citizens.
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i never said it was a secret, just not often mentioned. it may be a bbc thing, but the fact that it's adam curtis kind of shines a different light on it than if it were someone else, no?

you don't think this is controversial?

or this:
To fight the war in secret the British government also allowed the creation of a private mercenary force. Out of it would come today's privatized military industry that fights wars for dictators throughout Africa and is deeply involved in fighting against the insurgency in Iraq.
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?

and basically, because we fucked it up and made things worse there, you could argue that the Yemen war led indirectly to 9/11.

The Islamism that we face today rose up in the 1970s precisely as a reaction to those corrupt regimes and their western backers. It too is an anti-colonial project that is very similar to Nasser's vision of a united Arab world free of western influence - but with religion bolted on. And now, to fight it, we are preparing to send arms and "intelligence advisers" to help prop up a corrupt regime in Yemen.
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obviously the Yemen and current Iraq wars aren't particularly comparable. but the politics surrounding them are.

mark curtis wrote a book called 'unpeople' which covered a bit about it:
In ‘Unpeople’ Curtis notes that Yemen and the other case studies he examined in declassified government files illustrate the three basic principles that guide British foreign policy.

The first is the systematic deception of the public by British ministers, which is ‘deeply embedded in British policy-making.’ (Curtis, ‘Unpeople’, p. 3). Blair’s lies about Iraq fit comfortably as part of this trend.

The second principle is that policy-makers are typically open and frank about their real goals in secret documents. The glaring gap between state realpolitik and government claims of benevolence is rooted in a fundamental contempt for the general population. As Curtis says:

‘The foreign-policy decision-making system is so secretive, elitist and unaccountable that policy-makers know they can get away with almost anything, and they will deploy whatever arguments are needed to do this.’ (Ibid., p .3)

The third basic principle is that humanitarian concerns do not feature in the rationale for foreign policy. Curtis observes bluntly:

‘In the thousands of government files I have looked through for this and other books, I have barely seen any reference to human rights at all. Where such concerns are evoked, they are only for public-relations purposes.’ (Ibid., p .3)
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if you haven't already and feel like finding out more about this stuff, it's well worth watching the 1st part of 'the mayfair set' by adam curtis
 
grizzleb

grizzleb

Well-known member
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/30/guatemala-experiments

The guardian at the conspiracy nonsense again... What is the simplest story, that the many people it would take to organise such an operation were quiet for years about this, or that people were simply having too much unprotected sex? It's completely ridiculous that the state would be callous with human life, and also that such a crime could be carried out without it being exposed.
 
C

crackerjack

Well-known member
grizzleb said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/30/guatemala-experiments

The guardian at the conspiracy nonsense again... What is the simplest story, that the many people it would take to organise such an operation were quiet for years about this, or that people were simply having too much unprotected sex? It's completely ridiculous that the state would be callous with human life, and also that such a crime could be carried out without it being exposed.
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Well thanks for demonstrating that conspiracies do occur. That comes as a great surprise to those of us who've been banging on about the Met cover-up of the NoW hacking for over two years.


you don't think this is controversial?
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I think we might be at cross purposes here. I meant it was an uncontroversial opinion, not that it it was cool for it to have happened.

Anyway, I think we're heading up something of a blind alley. My point, and the reason why I disagree that Lanugo has raised some good points, is that there's a world of difference between the kind of evidence-based constructions that A Curtis makes and the 9/11 theories, which mostly comprise highlighting alleged disparities in the official story, ignoring the debunking of these disparities, and then leaping to the wild conclusions they wanted to find from the outset.

More importantly, this kind of reflex conspiracism has long since crossed the line from healthy scepticism to a kind of pathology. I've seen it (as I'm sure most of us have) in friends who "just know" that the royals killed Diana or MI5 killed David Kelly.

And, as mentioned upthread, it comes at a cost, encouraging apathy and (a particular problem since many CTs now find their home on the left) making dissenters look a bit mad.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
grizzleb said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/30/guatemala-experiments

The guardian at the conspiracy nonsense again... What is the simplest story, that the many people it would take to organise such an operation were quiet for years about this, or that people were simply having too much unprotected sex? It's completely ridiculous that the state would be callous with human life, and also that such a crime could be carried out without it being exposed.
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The Guatemala STD experiments are so fictitious that the US government has apologised for them...

It's totally believable that Western governments would do this sort of thing. What about the nuclear tests that exposed many thousands of people - American servicemen and Polynesian islanders alike - to dangerous and in some cases fatal doses of radiation? We did the same of course, as did the French. And what about that village in France in the 1950s that had an inexplicable madness epidemic, that turned out to be due to the CIA spiking the bread supply with LSD?

My main objections to the 9/11 'inside job' theory are that many of the attacks' victims were surely members of the very same elite that supposedly orchestrated the attacks, and the sheer unlikeliness of such a huge operation being kept under wraps for (at least) 10 years. Why hasn't a single anonymous 9/11 whistleblower contacted Wikileaks? It's never been easier for someone to publicise secret documents.
 
slowtrain

slowtrain

Well-known member
Mr. Tea said:
"Al-Qaida calls on Ahmadinejad to end 9/11 conspiracy theories

Terrorist organisation's magazine reportedly says it is 'ridiculous' for Iran's president to blame the attacks on the US government"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/28/al-qaida-ahmadinejad-911-conspiracy

AQ has a magazine?
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Haha, I thought the magazine bit was funny too.

I'm very interested to see what the 'troofers' make of this.

EDIT: Although, al-qaida 'magazine' seems pretty ripe for 'it's us govt and its fake!!!'

Now if they had said, illegally tripe-encrypted bestiality porn tracked from a website on the deep web accessible only to people who are willing to meet at a secret location to get the url and then to hack into a remote server to download the file had been found that said this same message....

Or maybe not. I don't really know how they could do it. Smoke signals from a cave in the mountains?

Do the hardcore 9/11 conspiracy theorists even believe al-qaida exists?
 
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Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Really hardcore conspiracy theorists think AQ, along with everything else in the world, is just a giant computer simulation to prevent us from realising that we're enslaved by evil robots...

I love that their magazine is called Inspire - sounds like it should be some bullshitty trade magazine from the Institute of Chartered Managers or somesuch.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I bet their agony column is a right laugh. "Dear Abdullah, can you help me? Things just aren't working out between me and my second-favourite wife..."
 
P

PeteUM

It's all grist
I'm prepared to believe any batshit theory up to a point but I reckon if the truthers are barking up the wrong tree it's partly, ironically, due to a paradoxical faith in the system in that they simply can't accept the fallability the of powers that be. I.e. how could a modest number of Arab dudes wreak such real/symbolic havoc? I'm interested in what leads people to place trust in/ascribe omnipotence to/cede agency to power/hierarchies and my bullshit pseudo psychoanalytic model needs some Big Dad figure, whether good or bad, to act as guarantor for the general, uh... ontology. In reality though, perhaps, reality is actually a bit more flimsy.
 
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