Richard Dawkins

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
There have been some fuck ups and dubious alliances for sure but they run from policies of Blair to the SWP and you see we are getting into funny definitions of left-wing too. That attitude is based on the same sort of stuff you get from the right that routinely instrumentalises perceived oppression and passiveness of muslim women. From EDL to Dawkins to Hilary Clinton, we see some shady shit dressed up as saviour bullshit.

It's not about trying to be a "saviour" - well maybe it is for some people, it certainly isn't for me**. I dunno, I'm just extremely opposed to relativism and the attitude among a lot of people that considerations to do with culture and belief trump all other considerations, such as gender violence, homophobia or indeed antagonism to other ethnic or religious groups. When I see a woman walking down the street completely covered from head to foot in black cloth with only her eyes showing*, I'm sorry but that does look very weird and not particularly OK to me. It's an explicit statement of men's ownership of women, and it distresses me that some people are able to blind themselves to this with a shrug and a "Well it's just their culture, innit". Or even to imply that people who are concerned about it, from a very basic humanitarian or feminist position, must necessarily be "racist". Whereas I think it's far more racist to adopt the relativist position that concepts like gender equality are appropriate for white people but not for Muslims.

[Before anyone jumps in with the OH SO WHITE PEOPLE HAVE SOLVED SEXISM, HAVE WE?!? - no, of course not. But that doesn't make issues like the niqab or female genital mutilation go away.]

I know fuck all about Muslims, Islam or the middle east tbh. Just because of who and where I live but there is plenty of past and present in Ireland - and we haven't even scratched the surface - that wouldn't be out of place in the fearmongering you see about Tehran or Bradford or where it is this week.

None of the horror and sensationalism strikes me as something unique that marks Islam out as the "single greatest threat" that Dawkins shites on about. It is dangerous and oppressive dont get me wrong, like most religions but that is not the some total of belief it's not taking over Europe or America any time soon is it and if it did, it wouldn't be any different to most of Europe a few decades ago. With that in mind, we know that much of the oppression didn't melt away as Europe became increasingly secular. When New Atheists talk about Bronze Age Sky Faries they are positioning all the bad bullshit we associate with religion in the past when the reality is, women in particular can tell you that the state, men and all sorts of crap is just wearing secular clothes.

The Irish parliament has just legislated to allow abortion on grounds that were decided by referendum twice in the last twenty-two years. What was once the rule of bishops, now in 2014, sees suicidal women contend with dozens of doctors and psychologists. Most will just get the plane to England, as they continue to do in their thousands each year because the power has just shifted from clerical to 'expert' technocratic hands. We will have to deal with this ourselves the same way countries and people in various stages of secularisation will, on their own terms.

The racism thing is ginormously complex, incomprehendible in its entirety for all sorts of reasons and an increasingly good rule thumb is listening to anybody other than Richard Dawkins.

I agree that there is nothing inherently unique about Islam - in particular, that there's far more in common between Islam and Christianity, and Judaism too of course, than many followers of those religions would be prepared to admit. Nevertheless, Islam does seem to be very widely politicised in a way that other religions aren't (these days) to anything like the same extent. (Then again, I get the impression the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox sects in Israel have such a disproportionate degree of influence in the Knesset that you could make the case for the country being a quasi-theorcracy.) Obviously there are many people in America who would quite happily turn their country into a Christian version of Iran, and that's extremely worrying - but they haven't got there, yet.

*I lived for a five years in a part of east London with a Bengali plurality, with its own directly elected (Bengali) mayor who got into power by playing the basest sort of tribalist ghetto politics and, not far away, streets where there are regular demonstrations by Islamists and it's becoming increasingly unpleasant and even unsafe for white people to walk. This isn't "right-wing propaganda", it's actually just how things are.

**Which is why I think France's veil ban is worse than the problem it purports to solve, and in a broader sense why I think Dawkins is not helping the secularist cause. People in Europe didn't stop being fundamentalist Calvinists and Puritans and Catholics because of an obstreperous campaign to convince them that religion is a terrible thing - it happened over the course of centuries as democratic institutions challenged the power of the church, people became wealthier and gained wider access to education and as progress in science, technology and medicine overturned the mediaeval worldview. People retreat into the old certainties when they feel under threat, and I can appreciate that for many Muslims Dawkins is one part of a many-headed Thing made up of Israel, US foreign policy, Hindu nationalism, domestic Islamophobia in Western countries and so on.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well, not to concentrate on Israel, but I think its abundantly clear that the relationship between Israel and the West and Lebanon and the West is fundamentally different.

Sure, Israel's position is unique in the Middle East and indeed the world, I wouldn't quibble with that.

The point about widespread discrimination against Palestinians in the Arab countries neighbouring Israel is more that it's something a lot of people in the west are probably not even aware of. But even to mention it just sounds like the sort of whataboutery someone might use to downplay Israel's crimes, doesn't it? (Like the fact that African slaves taken to the Americas by European slavers were sold to them by other slavers who were Arabs or blacks themselves - and who is it that wants to make a big deal of this in the history syllabus in British schools? Why, those champions of impartiality, UKIP of course! It can be almost impossible to draw attention to one instance of shittiness without being made to feel like you're excusing other instances of shittiness.)
 

droid

Well-known member
Sure, Israel's position is unique in the Middle East and indeed the world, I wouldn't quibble with that.

The point about widespread discrimination against Palestinians in the Arab countries neighbouring Israel is more that it's something a lot of people in the west are probably not even aware of. But even to mention it just sounds like the sort of whataboutery someone might use to downplay Israel's crimes, doesn't it? (Like the fact that African slaves taken to the Americas by European slavers were sold to them by other slavers who were Arabs or blacks themselves - and who is it that wants to make a big deal of this in the history syllabus in British schools? Why, those champions of impartiality, UKIP of course! It can be almost impossible to draw attention to one instance of shittiness without being made to feel like you're excusing other instances of shittiness.)

Terrible example. The reason UKIP and their ilk draw attention to arab and african slavers is specifically to try and minimise the far greater crimes of transatlantic industrial scale slavery.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Terrible example. The reason UKIP and their ilk draw attention to arab and african slavers is specifically to try and minimise the far greater crimes of transatlantic industrial scale slavery.

Er, crossed lines I think droid - that was exactly the point I was making.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Oh come off it Dan, it's a religion and a religion is a set of beliefs.

II think that's an overly narrow definition. I'm not saying the idea of "ethnic identity" is a water tight definition or that it trumps all others. But, as a for instance, I teach lots of kids who bond and hang together on the basis of shared ethnicity and background, rather than the explicit content of their beliefs. I suspect a lot of them don't know what they believe or are supposed to believe and will make it up on the fly when pushed. I don't think that many conflicts which are nominally religious can be understood by analysis of what beliefs each side holds, either.

You're not much of a Muslim if you don't believe there is one (and no more than one) God, that Mohammed was his final and definitive prophet and that you ought to give the beers and bacon sarnies a wide berth.

Aren't dietary prohibitions more cultural habits than "belief" as such?

Haven't read rest of thread yet, so sorry if any of this is covered.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
II think that's an overly narrow definition. I'm not saying the idea of "ethnic identity" is a water tight definition or that it trumps all others. But, as a for instance, I teach lots of kids who bond and hang together on the basis of shared ethnicity and background, rather than the explicit content of their beliefs. I suspect a lot of them don't know what they believe or are supposed to believe and will make it up on the fly when pushed. I don't think that many conflicts which are nominally religious can be understood by analysis of what beliefs each side holds, either.

Well alright, belief in the strict sense may not be the whole story, but it at least has *something* to do with it, doesn't it? If you exclude belief from the discussion altogether you could conclude that I'm a "Christian" because I celebrate Christmas, say "bless you" when someone sneezes and usually go for the fish and chips at work on a Friday. But in terms other than those utterly superficial ones I'm no more a Christian than I am a Hindu, and I certainly don't identify myself as one.

Rather more seriously, I remember something I read about how disturbances in the banlieues of Paris and other big cities in France are invariably blamed on "Muslim" youths. And it's true that the kids involved are very often the children or grandchildren of immigrants from Algeria, Lebanon or wherever, but are probably not necessarily "Muslims" any more than most white French people are "Christians". I mean, how ridiculous would it sound to reflexively refer to white people in 21st century Europe as "Christians"? So how helpful is it to reflexively refer to people of Arab or North African ancestry as "Muslims"?

I think Jonathan Meades is onto something when he says the liberal orthodoxy that we must at all times celebrate diversity is wrong-headed because it emphasises the differences between us and encourages exactly the sort of ghettoization, stereotyping and mutual suspicion that anyone who's serious about combatting inequality and prejudice ought to be opposed to - and that what we should celebrate instead are the things that bring us together, the things we all have in common. Which is not to say everyone should conform to some narrow mainstream culture, just that an outlook in which the most important fact about any given person is the culture and religion they happened to have be born into is fundamentally a quite depressing way of looking at the world. It's also inherently backwards-looking, since it's all about a person's origins, and their parents' origins, and their parents' parents' origins, and so on. Which makes it not particularly conducive in helping people to realize their academic or personal potential; to think not just about where they've come from, but where they're going, if that doesn't sound too vague and sappy.

At its worst, enthusiasm for the most unthinking kind of "multiculturalism" gives rise to support for things like faith schools, which are the exact opposite of multicultural, and the investment of power in unelected "community leaders" who are assumed to speak for a undifferentiated "community" of people who all look the same, talk the same, worship the same, think the same. (Great line I read somewhere once: white people don't have "community leaders", they have councillors and MPs.)

Aren't dietary prohibitions more cultural habits than "belief" as such?

I'm pretty sure pork and intoxicants are both explicitly forbidden in the Qu'ran.
 
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droid

Well-known member
I mean, how ridiculous would it sound to reflexively refer to white people in 21st century Europe as "Christians"? So how helpful is it to reflexively refer to people of Arab or North African ancestry as "Muslims"?

I dunno. Im a Christian I guess, culturally, plus I was baptised (though not confirmed). Do you have any idea how difficult it is to be excommunicated from the RCC?

So yeah, 'Christian atheist' isn't all that much more of a stretch from 'Jewish atheist'.

Incidentally, currently reading William Dalrymple's 'From the holy mountain'. Amazing book about Christianity in the Levant. My favourite anecdote so far is about two Syrian Muslim astronauts, who on their safe return from Mir, sacrificed a sheep at a Christian shrine dedicated to Mary for 'bringing them safely home from outer space'.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I dunno. Im a Christian I guess, culturally, plus I was baptised (though not confirmed). Do you have any idea how difficult it is to be excommunicated from the RCC?

No idea, but now you mention it, I'm tempted to sign up just so I can find out...

So yeah, 'Christian atheist' isn't all that much more of a stretch from 'Jewish atheist'.

Well, maybe. But I think the distinction between "cultural religion" and actual religious religion is important and should be retained. I mean, you presumably don't put "Christian" down as your religion on census or diversity forms, do you? Assuming they ask questions like that in Ireland, maybe they don't.

Incidentally, currently reading William Dalrymple's 'From the holy mountain'. Amazing book about Christianity in the Levant. My favourite anecdote so far is about two Syrian Muslim astronauts, who on their safe return from Mir, sacrificed a sheep at a Christian shrine dedicated to Mary for 'bringing them safely home from outer space'.

I heard about that book, it does look really interesting. Great anecdote - I wonder who it pissed off more, Dawkins or PETA?
 
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droid

Well-known member
If I had it digitally Id send it on, tis really really good, and repeatedly makes the point that middle eastern Christianity has more in common with Islam than with Christianity in the west.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Yeah, heard about that. Is there some kind of gold medal for Not Doing Yourself Any Favours?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
He does seem to be on a bit of a roll at the moment... which is another way of saying he seems to have totally lost it.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Rationalist, he was a rationalist, cleverer than you and me!

Rationalist, he was a rationalist, and it extended what he could see!
 

droid

Well-known member
"If your morality is based, as mine is, on a desire to increase the sum of happiness and reduce suffering, the decision to deliberately give birth to a Down's baby, when you have the choice to abort it early in the pregnancy, might actually be immoral from the point of view of the child's own welfare."

Surely then it would be immoral not to abort EVERY child?
 

droid

Well-known member
And, judging by Dawkins philosophical trajectory and appalling lack of judgement, Im sure he'll tweet his plan to achieve that aim any day now.
 
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