Richard Dawkins

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
You're assuming way too much. When I talk about liberalism, I'm talking about economic liberalism as much as I am talking about social liberalism.

OK, yeah, that's an important distinction. I'm no Marxist but I believe in a strong welfare state and publicly-owned services and I think a very close eye needs to be kept on what large companies get up to and how much political influence they have. So when I said liberalism, I very much meant social liberalism.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
think the article sectionfive posted in the thread about economic meltdown is good on this.

Yeah, I read that earlier. I was just pointing out that while you're always having a dig at the old Protestant work ethic, it's noticeable that there's a yawning north-south divide in Europe in terms of the effects of the economic shitstorm, with us boring Calvinist gruel-guzzlers in the cold grim North in considerably less shit than the Mediterranean countries (and Ireland).
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Yeah, I read that earlier. I was just pointing out that while you're always having a dig at the old Protestant work ethic, it's noticeable that there's a yawning north-south divide in Europe in terms of the effects of the economic shitstorm, with us boring Calvinist gruel-guzzlers in the cold grim North in considerably less shit than the Mediterranean countries (and Ireland).

Are you seriously suggesting that Greece is in the shit because Greek people are lazy? that's scary if so, but I can't quite believe you're saying that. Blaming the victims indeed.... and as for those layabout Irish!
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
No, I expect it has more to do with the political and corporate culture than with what ordinary working people do. As well as whatever policies have been foisted on them by the ECB, of course. According this Greece has the second-longest average working hours in the world, after South Korea! Edit: then again, those figures are for people in employment - of course it's a different story if you take into account unemployed and retired people. A country with a low retirement age will naturally be spending more on pensions than one with a higher retirement age (assuming similar life expectancy).
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
No, I expect it has more to do with the political and corporate culture than with what ordinary working people do. As well as whatever policies have been foisted on them by the ECB, of course. According this Greece has the second-longest average working hours in the world, after South Korea!

okay, back to sanity.

as to the Protestant work ethic, it's scary that in a society with more than enough for everybody, most people still work 35+ hours a week, and lots of jobs it's difficult to discern any kind of benefit to anyone except making rich people richer. Work does not have innate value - it depends what you're doing! And even when people are doing good work, they're often clearing up the mistakes/evil/ineptitude of others.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Look, I'm not saying "work is good" any more than you're saying "work is bad", I'm sure. I mean, I'm posting on Dissensus to kill time before I go home...work is great if you're the main beneficiary of the fruits of your labour, obviously it sucks to slug your guts out in order mainly to enrich someone else.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
true, but even taking that point aside, I do think if people en masse valued their own lives more, then a 4-day week would be a reality. The idea of 5-day-a-week work til you're 65/70 - what a fucking waste in most cases (i.e. some people have jobs that merit it, but even then those jobs could be segmented up with others, but most don't even have jobs that merit such time devotion).
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
The bottom line, though, is that if a state - like a person - has outgoings that exceed its income, it's going to get into debt. Some Irish friends of mine were telling me a few years ago how generous unemployment and housing benefit are there compared to the UK (though I'm sure it's not any more), and the retirement age in Greece is a good deal lower than in Germany, while life expectancy is the same. That's all fine and dandy if there's money to pay for it, and of course it would be ridiculous to blame people for voting for a party that offers them generous benefits and a reasonable retirement age rather than a life of drudgery. It's then up to governments to fulfill those promises in a way that's not going to bankrupt the country.

Did you know Greece spends more of its GDP on its military than any country in Europe outside Russia? I mean what are they afraid of - the Neo-Ottoman Empire? Tragically, I wouldn't be surprised if that rises rather than falls, what with all the civil strife they're having (and will have).

So yeah, I wasn't trying to going down the blame-the-victim route - of course it's governments that create these conditions, or allow them to happen.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Re Greece - one of the main things as I understand is that the French and the US flogged them 51 (?) fighter jets in the mid-2000s, which were unimaginably expensive and still haven't been cut.

But other countries took the decision to buy Greek government bonds (and so now can't let Greece default) - bad investment decisions as with the sub-prime mortgages in the States. And people aren't getting punished for that, they're bailing these bastards out and punishing ordinary people who had nothing to do with any of it through 'austerity'. If you throw money at a bad investment, you should lose that money.

I dunno, it's all such a mess:

"The neoliberal turn therefore came later in Greece than elsewhere in Europe. It was Costas Simitis, PASOK prime minister from 1996 to 2004, aided by Papademos at the central bank, who set the country on a course of sell-offs and deregulation, while also claiming to cut the deficit, lower labour costs and crush inflation, bringing the country into line with EMU convergence criteria and joining the euro in 2001. Financial deregulation had produced a frenzy of speculative activity, boosting the Athens stock market to unprecedented heights and transferring large quantities of wealth upwards to a newly financialized elite; euphoria rose higher still in the run-up to the 2004 Athens Olympics. In reality, as the world now knows, the deficit figures were rigged: Simitis and Papademos oversaw a fee of $300 million to Goldman Sachs to shift billions of euros of debt off the public accounts. Yet even when this was revealed by Eurostat in 2004, the ratings agencies continued to give Greek bonds a triple-A investment grade. Like Spain and Ireland, Greece was seen as a Eurozone success story, by contrast to the ‘rigidities’ of France and Germany. Its traditional sectors of shipping and banking were riding high during the globalization boom; Greek banks expanded their operations into Romania and Bulgaria. Growth rates soared, buoyed up by credit provided, not least, by French and German banks, which fuelled a lending boom to Greek consumers. The government debt, too, soared—stabilizing at around 100 per cent of GDP as of 1993—drawing on both domestic and above all foreign loans, the latter comprising two-thirds of the total. French loans funded an extraordinary arms-buying spree: in 2005–09, for example, Greece bought 25 French Mirage-2000 jets and 26 F-16 fighters from the US, purchases which accounted for 40 per cent of the country’s total imports."
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Nothing wrong with blaming Greece for it's own problems.

What a stupid thing to say. Everyone in a country deserves to pay for the idiocy/greed of the rich in their country and internationally? Greece is not a fucking unitary entity, for god's sakes.

By the same logic you are responsible for everything Britain does, then?

Sorry, rising to the conservative troll....
 
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faustus

Well-known member
then again, those figures are for people in employment - of course it's a different story if you take into account unemployed and retired people. A country with a low retirement age will naturally be spending more on pensions than one with a higher retirement age (assuming similar life expectancy).

Greece has a higher average retirement age than Germany.

Did you know Greece spends more of its GDP on its military than any country in Europe outside Russia? I mean what are they afraid of - the Neo-Ottoman Empire? Tragically, I wouldn't be surprised if that rises rather than falls, what with all the civil strife they're having (and will have).

That is a bit bonkers, but at least some of the out-of-control spending comes from bribe-procured deals with German companies: http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/news-brief/1554351-siemens-signs-self-purification-pact
 

vimothy

yurp
Four or five comments back you were both discussing Greece. Now you want to say, there is no Greece. So it seems like Greece the victim exists, but not Greece the nation of people with agency.
 
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