The Middle East/Islam as a trope in electronic music

[muser]

and as a rule of thumb the more invested you are the better your art is. it’s all just another way of saying lazy sampling produces bad music.

in that respect I do agree for sure, but when we are talking kung fu samples specifically here im still not entirely convinced sorry

edit- if your talking about the aesthetic of the Wu for example, the whole general image, their deep involvement made a huge difference in the quality and tastefulness of it, but not in regards to the sampling in the actual music I don't think. Im purely talking kung fu samples/aesthetic here now lol

it’s that your level of engagement w/the source material will be reflected in the quality of your art.

disagree, I don't think it necessarily affects the actual quality of the musical output, at all

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

But there are & still were Jamiacan producers/musicians doing it which arnt really involved in the music or culture.

that was tongue in cheek. I thought it would heavy-handed to spell that out. I guess I was wrong.

Just when you dont like the sound of it?

pretty much. it's a smell test and like all virtually all opinions about art it is purely subjective. that is the difference between offering an opinion and passing a moral judgment.

FOR THE LAST TIME, LIKE I ALREADY SAID, I AM 100% NOT INTO SELF-APPOINTED POLICING OR CENSORSHIP OR ANY OTHER KIND OF MORALISTIC IMPOSITION. EVER. SORRY FOR THE CAPS BUT I'M AFRAID I'M JUST NOT GETTING ACROSS. sorry, is that clear enough?

 

[muser]

ok got it!!

 

[zhao]

...virtually all opinions about art it is purely subjective.

false.

 

[muser]

Not false True.taste in food is subjective, the analogy is overused an incompatible anyway. The acceptance that your taste in anything is governed by something irrational and meaningless dosent mean its not worth discussing, especially if you are on a similar wavelength, you can judge things by the same criteria you probably both ended up creating (if you having a discussion in the first place).

Ill throw this one in aswell since we started http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?11978-Essentialism-in-Art-amp-Music-Authenticity&highlight=essentialism

 

[muser]

may aswell put this here, I heard recently, the backing is nothing special tbh, but her voice (and the pic)... simmering

 

[Mr. Tea]

false.

Well, that's your opinion...

actually good v. bad taste, w/all the underlying class tones, are a big piece of what you're talking about w/"genuine" appreciation" and the like.

I can see your point here but I think it fails to distinguish between rather different meanings of the word "taste". Sure, there's a meaning that has class connotations, an axis that has 'vintage' and 'boutique' at one end and Burberry and bling at the other. But there's a distinct meaning that has ethical rather than aesthetic connotations - the meaning according to which it is in questionable taste to call a track 'Jordanian Descent (Sharia Law)' and use a photo of that Arab-American soldier who went nuts and shot a load of his comrades on the cover when you don't really have any deep investment in Middle Eastern politics and are doing it basically to be transgressive for the sake of being transgressive.

 

[Slothrop]

it’s that your level of engagement w/the source material will be reflected in the quality of your art. and as a rule of thumb the more invested you are the better your art is. it’s all just another way of saying lazy sampling produces bad music.

I don't think that those are the same at all - in fact, I agree with the second bit in general but disagree with the first. But I'd say that lazy sampling has more to do with how well you fit the sample into your own work rather than how much you're engaged with the scene that the sample came from.

I think Qawwali by Pinch is a good example of this, actually - as far as I know, he isn't a world expert on Islamic devotional music or a trained qawwali singer, but the tune works because the sample dovetails beautifully into the vibe and atmosphere of the track. It doesn't feel like "lazy sampling" because he's used it so well, and it wouldn't matter whether he'd studied the style for years or just got emailed the sample by a mate...

 

[baboon2004]

I think Qawwali by Pinch is a good example of this, actually - as far as I know, he isn't a world expert on Islamic devotional music or a trained qawwali singer, but the tune works because the sample dovetails beautifully into the vibe and atmosphere of the track. It doesn't feel like "lazy sampling" because he's used it so well, and it wouldn't matter whether he'd studied the style for years or just got emailed the sample by a mate...

he said in the Wire interview that his interest in qawwali music came from his brother's girlfriend (who was either from Pakistan or her parents were) recording CDs for him, so he probably does know considerably more about the music than most Westerners i.e. it has a personal context. Not saying this is always the case, mind you, but in this example, it is.

I agree with your last point though - all that matters is how good the finished piece is, and I think it's a blatant cognitive bias that suggests a good finished piece MUST come from somehow understanding the sampled music in a broad way. Recontextualisation of the sample is part of what makes sampling amazing, part of what makes it an artform in itself. Shedloads of examples in hip hop - was Premier an expert on 1920s silent films when he made the beat for 'Represent'? All of this seems to dovetail with debates around 'authenticity', to me....

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

distinguish between rather different meanings of the word "taste"

come on bro with the pedantry tho. it was perfectly clear what I meant. and actually, taste as in chic/trashy and taste as in morally distasteful are just variations of the same meaning: taste as valuation. but yeah, it's true, sometimes words have multiple definitions. English is fucking crazy like that. personally I blame the Danes for failing to properly conquer the Anglo-Saxons so we could just speak Danish.

lazy sampling has more to do with how well you fit the sample into your own work

so, "lazy sampling" is too vague a concept to be helpful unless you further specify what you mean. also, sampling can't be arbitrarily separated from the rest of the total aesthetic. it doesn't even make sense to try. and focusing just on sampling is forest for trees. I give up trying to explain what I mean tho. I dunno, I'm interested in Tea's initial question, not so much in some ultra-broad thing about permissibleness of sampling and authenticity strawmen and whatever (I thought popists murdered authenticity + burned its corpse back in like 2001 anyway?)

if anything Qawwali is too tasteful for me. well-done, sure, but kinda boring.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

was Premier an expert on 1920s silent films when he made the beat for 'Represent'?

little-known fact: Premier initially moved to NYC to do an MFA at Tisch. his dissertation was a Lacanian analysis of the works of Fritz Lang. so yeah, my man knew thing or two about silent film-era organists. in fact, Zizek copped his whole schtick from Primo. that's what "You Know My Steez" is about.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

but back o/t: the greatest Israeli hardcore band of all time (by a wide margin), named after the most infamous massacre in the history of the State of Israel

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Bcri74HE7fc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[zhao]

99% of hophop heads agree that "36 Chambers" is a PRETTY good album,
and "Vanilla Ice Is Back" from 2008, not so much.

99% of diners will agree what is a good plate of pasta, and what isn't.

And you lot say objective standards of quality doesn't exist?
and all art is subjective?

The fuck outta here.

Not written in stone, constantly morphing, and very context specific,
but objective criteria for valuation exist for every single human creative endeavor,
from Architecture to Hair Dressing, from Conceptual Art to Pole Dancing.

 

[zhao]

Grounded in the rhythmic traditions and tonal language of North Africa and the Middle East*, Djinn Bass fuses Sufi Ritual Music and Club Beats, Sacred Egyptian Hymns and Abstract Dub, Classic Rai and Dubstep, Turkish Taqsim and Tech House, Moroccan Chaabi anthems and Tribal Electro. Ouds, Flutes, and Darbukas mix and blend with electronic pulse; vocal refrains underpinned by digital bass, sometimes chopped, looped, and dubbed out. Decidedly anti short-attention-span, as the FUSION series have increasingly become, the tracks are long because duration is essential for the ecstatic and immersive nature of this music.

HERE.

 

[muser]

99% of hophop heads agree that "36 Chambers" is a PRETTY good album,
and "Vanilla Ice Is Back" from 2008, not so much.

99% of diners will agree what is a good plate of pasta, and what isn't.

your statistics are wrong... again I dont think food analogies can work with music. But just to go with it, on the 99% thing most people dont even know what a good plate of pasta is supposed to even taste like. Most Italians dont even fucking agree.

 

[zhao]

your statistics are wrong... again I dont think food analogies can work with music. But just to go with it, on the 99% thing most people dont even know what a good plate of pasta is supposed to even taste like. Most Italians dont even fucking agree.

ALL italians COMPLETELY agree on what generally makes good pasta: freshness of veggies, richness of sauce, noodles done just right, etc.

you think it is entirely subjective that Robert Deniro is a good actor?

lol

 

[zhao]

Reducing all human creative endeavors down to "taste" and "personal preference"

is the most bourgeois, small minded, dishonest, shameful and stupid things a middle aged under educated house wife of an insurance salesman can ever say, to quiet down any discussion at the dinner table which threatens to become slightly interesting:

"now hush. it's all subjective!"

 

[baboon2004]

little-known fact: Premier initially moved to NYC to do an MFA at Tisch. his dissertation was a Lacanian analysis of the works of Fritz Lang. so yeah, my man knew thing or two about silent film-era organists. in fact, Zizek copped his whole schtick from Primo. that's what "You Know My Steez" is about.

It's amazing what one doesn't know.

 

[baboon2004]

re the subjective/objective debate: as someone who kinda subscribes to the objective point of view, it is also good to consider where one's proclivity towards that point comes from. For me, part of it was a constant frustration when growing up at having opinions/tastes different from those around me i.e. a sense of alienation. Therefore I became fiercely protective of the 'objective rightness' of my tastes.

In my view, one of the good things about being in a close relationship (with anyone, not just a 'partner') is that it forces you to reconsider the notion that everything you think is good taste/bad taste must objectively be right, and to accept/at least tolerate/consider that another person feels differently about it from you. If you can't do that, I think that most often you end up browbeating the other person until they agree with you/accept not to give their own opinion. Not a good look. You can't baulk (?) every time other people don't exactly share your tastes in music, food etc, i.e. show that they aren't you, else you will end up unhappy. Sadly there is no objective proof that steak 'shouldn't' be well done, much as the idea appals me....

And I'd say the trick is to work out which things you are willing to consider might be 'just' your subjective opinion (which doesn't mean letting go of your opinion/passion at all, but rather not forcing other people to share your opinion), and which of your opinions are more important than that (e.g. deeply held moral views of the world). All of this doesn't mean giving up tryign to convince the other person of your rightness -of course not, that would be dull - but by learning to exercise more empathy in trying to understand why they think as they do. After all, it's equally dull to have definitively 'made your mind up' and never to learn from other people - that's a kind of death.

All that said, there is objectively no excuse for Wes Anderson making films.

PS The 'all Italians' thing made me chuckle. Essentialising about an entire country's attitudes is silly. Anytime anyone says 'all British people...', you know what follows is going to be ludicrous. My Dad does this a lot, with Italian/German/American people etc, even as he prides himself on having different attitudes from other British people.

PPS Surely a 'bourgeois' attitude is one which prides itself on thinking certain things are objectively right and others are objectively in bad taste/have no merit.

 

[muser]

ALL italians COMPLETELY agree on what generally makes good pasta: freshness of veggies, richness of sauce, noodles done just right, etc.

you think it is entirely subjective that Robert Deniro is a good actor?

lol

i dont like robert denero, i appreciate he can act but i dont like him. If you think italians arent divided about italian food, you dont know much about italian food. I dont know much about italian food and i know that. Freshness of ingredients, etc, of course objective, can that be applied to any visual art or music. no it cant. try another anology please.