Patrick Swayze
I'm trying to shut up
Trying to get a release together with Wiley is like trying to get blood from a stone(d)
wileys devils mixes
- Thread starter yyaldrin
- Start date
Trying to get a release together with Wiley is like trying to get blood from a stone(d)
wise
bare BARE BONES
make me an offer
philblackpool
gamelanstep
I've also been thinking how the devil mix stuff needs putting out again & how the demand must surely be there. From the odd interview, post etc & looking at his sprawling catalogue on Discogs, I think Wiley, much more than any other garage guy, seems to have that reggae mentality about releases - make em, put em out, get paid, move on, then concentrate on what sells best (hmmm, bad pop records) whilst throwing out a few bits of effortless brilliance to keep his hardcore audience happy. Reissues low on the agenda. Not got the Ruff Sqwad one yet but at least that's one done! I would imagine someone could pull together Danny Weed, Skepta, Jammer & a bunch of the one-offs & press em on proper CDs at least, there are enough 'wants' & high prices on discogs, obvious eski tributes on soundcloud etc. I've been having a bit of a clean-up on some of the classic grime/garage crew entries on discogs this week (putting members in crews, grouping aliases, etc) & there still looks like there's a ton of work to do there if anyone can be bothered but it's certainly much better than years ago.
Re: picking up originals, I had an unfortunate history with grime 12s - I was in Essex at the time, buying loadsa garage, but the local shop was slow to pick up on the grime (probably cos it wasn't as jiggy) so I only got a few (I did get "Ice Rink" amongst others though :-D ) & then moved to Blackpool just as it was really taking off. I couldn't work out where to get them in Manchester (I suspect you could - probably the shop right down the back end of Oldham St if I'd realised) & settled for tape packs rather than send for em all. Doh! However, few things are as hard to find as people tell you & I have scooped up a good few grime whites & high period grime 12s (Sing Along, Pull Up Dat Remix, Frontline 2 etc) dirt cheap in Manchester, Brum or a tenner or under online in recent years. I think from what I read (someone please feel free to flame me) that some of the pressings were reasonably sizeable, so I presume the main problem is identifying the white labels amongst the zillions that litter second hand store basements - who actually memorises all the matrix numbers?! The ones I've bought second hand have all been in good nick.
I know I should be but I'm not that interested in most of the DMZ stuff (although I love the Swamp 81 stable) but I don't know what they're doing not repressing all their stuff, most labels'd kill for the numbers they could shift.
Re: picking up originals, I had an unfortunate history with grime 12s - I was in Essex at the time, buying loadsa garage, but the local shop was slow to pick up on the grime (probably cos it wasn't as jiggy) so I only got a few (I did get "Ice Rink" amongst others though :-D ) & then moved to Blackpool just as it was really taking off. I couldn't work out where to get them in Manchester (I suspect you could - probably the shop right down the back end of Oldham St if I'd realised) & settled for tape packs rather than send for em all. Doh! However, few things are as hard to find as people tell you & I have scooped up a good few grime whites & high period grime 12s (Sing Along, Pull Up Dat Remix, Frontline 2 etc) dirt cheap in Manchester, Brum or a tenner or under online in recent years. I think from what I read (someone please feel free to flame me) that some of the pressings were reasonably sizeable, so I presume the main problem is identifying the white labels amongst the zillions that litter second hand store basements - who actually memorises all the matrix numbers?! The ones I've bought second hand have all been in good nick.
I know I should be but I'm not that interested in most of the DMZ stuff (although I love the Swamp 81 stable) but I don't know what they're doing not repressing all their stuff, most labels'd kill for the numbers they could shift.
philblackpool
gamelanstep
Probably been in the main Grime thread, but just spotted on Simon Reynolds' energy flash blog that Footsie has two CDs of his old instros out as well.
Simon78
Well-known member
Most of those old tunes are long gone. Computers and hardrives have broken and files are lost. I know Cheeky was finding it hard to get all the tunes he wanted for the Wiley CD, they just don't exist any more. Same thing with Ruff Sqwad, I doubt they thought about people wanting them 10 years later.
Some of the early stuff I've got has been bounced as 160kbps mp3s and that's the only version that exists now but you can usually get most of the old records on Discogs/ebay or DNR anyway. Mind you the prices do seem to have gone mental recently but it seems like one or two people are setting them stupidly high and they aren't selling.
I know my label is only a few years old but I wouldn't bother repressing anything. I'd prefer to use my money to put out new stuff.
Some of the early stuff I've got has been bounced as 160kbps mp3s and that's the only version that exists now but you can usually get most of the old records on Discogs/ebay or DNR anyway. Mind you the prices do seem to have gone mental recently but it seems like one or two people are setting them stupidly high and they aren't selling.
I know my label is only a few years old but I wouldn't bother repressing anything. I'd prefer to use my money to put out new stuff.
philblackpool
gamelanstep
I'm all for moving forward, but I think some archival things are so important that they need doing for posterity (& also how relevant they have continued to be) - I mean Wiley surely must be agreed to be one of the most important musical figures in the country in the last fifteen years, if only for the whole devil mix idea, let alone the eski style, the raps, the promotion of new talent, the extent of his work & collaboration... I guess if tunes never left the producer's computer they may well be lost now for the reasons stated, but it's amazing how stuff sits in peoples' houses & then turns up decades later - think of blues 78s only being turned up now etc - all I'd say is if anyone is thinking of trying to reissue any of this stuff, do it now, don't leave it til the people involved or who collected em have emigrated, died etc! Early grime does seem to have particularly suffered due to the aforementioned difficult-to-pick-out white label thing (how many just got junked in second hand shops? "Oh, that'll be more rubbish prog trance!"), due to being an early example of online filesharing undercutting releases & allowing stuff to come out as digital-only & risk no-one keeping one, & as you say, due to people not thinking it 'matters' enough to record it all in extreme detail. Like all the crusty old 80s dancehall stuff getting unexpected praise heaped on the current expensive wave of reish 7s though, it DOES matter & someone sees to a high percentage of it eventually, when demand peaks or love takes over 
Simon78
Well-known member
Oh don't get me wrong I'd love them at all on a CD but some of the Ruff Sqwad stuff was written on the school computer so that will all have gone. Everyone was cutting dubs then as well so once you'd cut it there was no real need for the CD any more. I'm sure a few of the old DJs will have still have stuff on CD though. They were writing so much at the time and the tunes probably only had a short shelf life as more new stuff got written (apart from the big tunes obviously but they all got released). I know Rapid didn't have some of the stuff they wanted for the Ruff Sqwad CD and when I was chatting to XTC he didn't even have a copy of his own record (he did still have the WAV and stems though).
There's an old Spooky tune I'd kill to put out but it got lost on a hardrive crash and its gone for good. In fact I had a whole EP signed with 4 great tunes on it but they all went and now all that exists is 2 320s a 192 and a 160 mp3 which were the demos I got sent.
I'd love it if someone put out old Slew Dem and Roadside G's tunes on a triple vinyl LP with loads of photos and stuff like the Diggers With Gratitude label do with old Hip-Hop but I would be surprised if you would sell enough to break even. Probably would with Wiley I guess.
A lot of the old records for sale are thrashed, its quite hard to get proper NM copies.
There's an old Spooky tune I'd kill to put out but it got lost on a hardrive crash and its gone for good. In fact I had a whole EP signed with 4 great tunes on it but they all went and now all that exists is 2 320s a 192 and a 160 mp3 which were the demos I got sent.
I'd love it if someone put out old Slew Dem and Roadside G's tunes on a triple vinyl LP with loads of photos and stuff like the Diggers With Gratitude label do with old Hip-Hop but I would be surprised if you would sell enough to break even. Probably would with Wiley I guess.
A lot of the old records for sale are thrashed, its quite hard to get proper NM copies.
philblackpool
gamelanstep
Ha! That's quality re Ruff Sqwad & the school computer. I remember reading about Dizzee starting with his teacher as well. I work in a school up here & they troop in & get their raps cut in school like anywhere else. Is anyone working REALLY hard to dig all this up though? I mean its very unlikely, but is the music teacher still at that school & do they still have the machine, or did he/she keep those tracks for posterity? Its possible. If they left, someone will know where they went next...I don't live anywhere near London, so I've got a bye on this project but I've dug up similarly obscure bits from other styles before. One tip is to keep on at people - I'm like anyone else, friends have been asking for years have I got this tape or that tape of some old demo/live bit, & I just can't always be bothered to dig em out, but often people'll eventually give in if you press em enough times & they can tell yr really interested.
Yeah see what you mean re dubs. I think someone mentioned Slimzee above, who was obviously the dub master. Same problem with Tubby in JA, 70s - tons of magic bits of music (cut LIVE, no other recording), mostly now lost, but then those do get dredged up sometimes as well. I don't think anyone'd be too upset if they couldn't ever get the DJ Sillyname VIP of Ice Rink on CD though, its just the classic numbers/main versions innit.
Re: DWG....not now you might not break even....but look how the big reissue projects grind on through the years....locate all the stuff now, reissue when it pays - indeed, pay for it via locating & selling some of the original 12s as they continue to escalate in price :-D
I don't think it'd be the end of the world if a few tracks only came down to CD via slightly crackly dubs etc. I mean, I once listened to a Blind Lemon Jefferson bootleg LP presumably from before they found decent copies of most of it & no joke, it was more crackle than music :-D
Yeah see what you mean re dubs. I think someone mentioned Slimzee above, who was obviously the dub master. Same problem with Tubby in JA, 70s - tons of magic bits of music (cut LIVE, no other recording), mostly now lost, but then those do get dredged up sometimes as well. I don't think anyone'd be too upset if they couldn't ever get the DJ Sillyname VIP of Ice Rink on CD though, its just the classic numbers/main versions innit.
Re: DWG....not now you might not break even....but look how the big reissue projects grind on through the years....locate all the stuff now, reissue when it pays - indeed, pay for it via locating & selling some of the original 12s as they continue to escalate in price :-D
I don't think it'd be the end of the world if a few tracks only came down to CD via slightly crackly dubs etc. I mean, I once listened to a Blind Lemon Jefferson bootleg LP presumably from before they found decent copies of most of it & no joke, it was more crackle than music :-D
Simon78
Well-known member
Yeah its on one of the DVDs and they're sat in the school computer room being interviewed and playing some tunes. I think they are a bit older then or its a sixth form college? Can't think which DVD it is now though. This was years ago though so I bet the school has new computers and the old ones got thrown away.
There are 2 old tunes I'm trying to put out at the moment. I didn't even know they existed tbh and had never heard them before but they're amazing. They were collabs though and getting the others to agree to putting it out is going to be tough. Some of them aren't writing/interested in music any more and then one of them is impossible to get in touch with. The versions I have got have got 2 digital glitches in them so I need versions without those. I can't tell if they were burnt as WAVs or mp3s originally either. Not sure I would want to press up mp3s? I suppose it depends on if they sound good enough though really.
I do know a few people with loads of old tunes but nobody is trying to put them out or archive them all. I don't have much spare cash and all of it goes on putting new stuff out.
There are 2 old tunes I'm trying to put out at the moment. I didn't even know they existed tbh and had never heard them before but they're amazing. They were collabs though and getting the others to agree to putting it out is going to be tough. Some of them aren't writing/interested in music any more and then one of them is impossible to get in touch with. The versions I have got have got 2 digital glitches in them so I need versions without those. I can't tell if they were burnt as WAVs or mp3s originally either. Not sure I would want to press up mp3s? I suppose it depends on if they sound good enough though really.
I do know a few people with loads of old tunes but nobody is trying to put them out or archive them all. I don't have much spare cash and all of it goes on putting new stuff out.
slackk
-
I think there's something to be said for a lot of this music being lost, actually. The thing about the proper peak era of grime- when the radio sets were a real thing and it was an actual active community of music with pirates and raves in every area etc- is that really it was a very specific moment in time and it's not going to be replicated in any sense again.
Yes, grime as a sound or idea has had far more longevity than I think anyone initially would have thought, and it’s a testament to it that the instrumental thing is flourishing again at the moment in the hands of a lot of young producers, but the current scene bears little resemble the genuine beginnings (and some would say peak) of the sound and how it blossomed in London. Why can’t some things just be appreciated as a finite moment and left alone?
The idea that all these tracks should be compiled and reappropriated to be downloaded en masse by everyone is kind of noble in a sense, but at the same time I think there's a sense of achievement in getting hold of a record you've been after for years or finding a random white label in a 2nd hand shop that turns out to be gold. The only purpose any grime reissues would really serve is to re-contextualise parts of that genuine moment and place them in the endless ether of internet music to be downloaded off funkysouls/nodata etc.
Yes, grime as a sound or idea has had far more longevity than I think anyone initially would have thought, and it’s a testament to it that the instrumental thing is flourishing again at the moment in the hands of a lot of young producers, but the current scene bears little resemble the genuine beginnings (and some would say peak) of the sound and how it blossomed in London. Why can’t some things just be appreciated as a finite moment and left alone?
The idea that all these tracks should be compiled and reappropriated to be downloaded en masse by everyone is kind of noble in a sense, but at the same time I think there's a sense of achievement in getting hold of a record you've been after for years or finding a random white label in a 2nd hand shop that turns out to be gold. The only purpose any grime reissues would really serve is to re-contextualise parts of that genuine moment and place them in the endless ether of internet music to be downloaded off funkysouls/nodata etc.
philblackpool
gamelanstep
I know a few people into noise/experimental stuff (kinda my home ground) who have similar views on the thrill of the chase, not letting things get out there so much they get sullied etc, but I've always been more of the opinion that if its good, let people hear it, personally.
I'm not actually desperate for a lot of them myself - I'm a pragmatist & not really a DJ, so a shoddy MP3 of a devil mix with someone rapping on it will do me fine in most cases - but I'd love the reish as well & people still get turned onto Elvis, so I'm sure the same'll be true re: grime in years to come :-D
I'm not actually desperate for a lot of them myself - I'm a pragmatist & not really a DJ, so a shoddy MP3 of a devil mix with someone rapping on it will do me fine in most cases - but I'd love the reish as well & people still get turned onto Elvis, so I'm sure the same'll be true re: grime in years to come :-D
owengriffiths
Owen
Hard drive crashes accepted. But when the likes of Slimzee was cutting a (now worn out and useless) dub he would have been doing it from a CD. Even after a decade and moving house X amounts of times I'm sure at least one of the top DJ's has these sort of tunes on CDR. I think that was how they sourced Benga's 'Star Wars' track that had been lost in PC failure- someone, presumably Hatcha, had it lying around on CD somewhere so it ended up on the roots of dubstep CD. Blackdown could confirm this.
Jon E Cash has said recently that he is looking to re-release a lot of his old bits. I think Black Ops have one of the strongest back catalogues in Grime and could be marketed well. Play up to T. Williams' current success, work hard at pushing the compatible with Dubstep angle, maybe make something out of them being from West. The only problem is I wonder if Jon E Cash is going actually to pull through with this.
But consider this. All the following producers have been confident enough of sales to re-release stuff: Wiley, JME, Dot Rotten, Waifa, Ruff Sqwad, Footsie, Bigshot, SLK, Yongstar did a few years ago.
Jon E Cash has said recently that he is looking to re-release a lot of his old bits. I think Black Ops have one of the strongest back catalogues in Grime and could be marketed well. Play up to T. Williams' current success, work hard at pushing the compatible with Dubstep angle, maybe make something out of them being from West. The only problem is I wonder if Jon E Cash is going actually to pull through with this.
But consider this. All the following producers have been confident enough of sales to re-release stuff: Wiley, JME, Dot Rotten, Waifa, Ruff Sqwad, Footsie, Bigshot, SLK, Yongstar did a few years ago.
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philblackpool
gamelanstep
I suppose the other problem with producers having stuff on old CDRs is that they can knacker over time, can't they...this connected with what we are saying about MP3s disappearing is one of the many reasons why I choose to look like a dinosaur & still hoover up lots of vinyl.
Ooo, Black Ops reish sounds good - needs a firm hand on selection though, they did some fairly puerile rap tracks etc.
I didn't realise Bigshot had done some reissues - I still don't have proper copies of any of them outside of mixes, could you possibly give some further detail?
Ooo, Black Ops reish sounds good - needs a firm hand on selection though, they did some fairly puerile rap tracks etc.
I didn't realise Bigshot had done some reissues - I still don't have proper copies of any of them outside of mixes, could you possibly give some further detail?
Simon78
Well-known member
If I was going to put old tunes out I would want WAVs and then get them mastered. A lot of the people mentioned put unmastered stuff up on bandcamp and it didn't sound great tbh. I would be surprised if they made £200. The bigger releases like the Ruff Sqwad one would have made more.
The EP of old stuff I want to put is on a CD that the producer. That CD is 8 years old though, scratched and has digital glitches. If I can copy it off direct to a desktop so the glitches go (for some reason they show up more when you rip it to itunes) I've still got to get in touch with the 3 other producers it was written with and get them to agree. They'll make about £100 each so its not worth their time. I'll still have a go though.
Logan will have loads of it on CD. Does anyone know if you can check a file and see if its a WAV or mp3 from the waveform?
The EP of old stuff I want to put is on a CD that the producer. That CD is 8 years old though, scratched and has digital glitches. If I can copy it off direct to a desktop so the glitches go (for some reason they show up more when you rip it to itunes) I've still got to get in touch with the 3 other producers it was written with and get them to agree. They'll make about £100 each so its not worth their time. I'll still have a go though.
Logan will have loads of it on CD. Does anyone know if you can check a file and see if its a WAV or mp3 from the waveform?
philblackpool
gamelanstep
There has been a definite drop in mastering quality since people stopped doing vinyl en masse & getting help with the whole release process - I was at Beatherder the other week & had a great time, but some of the stuff in the dance areas sounded so flat, despite the heavyweight sound systems, which is weird when so much of it is so quick-changey - if it was on vinyl like in the 90s, it'd sound mental!
owengriffiths
Owen
Hmm, not very encouraging.
This might be a stupid question but with your glitch ridden CD could you just loop the parts that work well and scrap the rest- as a worst case scenario. One of the unintended advantages of the eight bar structure is that with a worn out twelve you can rip the crackle free 16 bars and just loop it ad infinitum.
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owengriffiths
Owen
That is something I've always wondered about- presumably most producers are hopeless at mastering. And do you reckon the likes of Radio 1 have in house masterers to make their shows full of CDRs sound good? That would explain why certain tracks sound great on the radio but crap elsewhere.
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