KAN YAY OR KAN NAY? (The Kanye West Thread)
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rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
cant see the whole thing right now but i dunno if its esp sexist (for that you just need to listen to the last album), its just dumb and provocative for the sake of it. bill cosby? a man whos being tried for rape? is there any real purpose to having trump in it? im sure kanye would say its something about being fucked politically, merged with actual fucking, and asking what the difference is ('id rather be a dick than a swallower'), as some greater metaphor about power, but the pablo album is such a mess in content terms, this video doesnt seem to be any different. kanye is deep into his arsehole-indulgence phase.
rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
i dunno. shes so famous. not sure you can really affect her that much. its not like its a video of bush, trump and chris brown having sex with her. shes just lying there. doing nothing. its actually quite neutral and ambiguous. so i dont totally get what the big deal about that/her is. is it any diff from say, some newspaper comic strip artist drawing taylor nude? shes quite good at playing 'poor me'. i think its more interesting than her being in there. tho obv her being there is to bait her a bit.
droid
Well-known member
Yeah, jesus it is very different. Much worse. An almost perfectly realistic image of you lying there almost completely naked whilst the men beside you (including a wife beater, rapist & a war criminal) are all partially covered. A really awful theft of agency and violation of privacy.
I haven't seen anything anyone has said about this, let alone Swift, but it seems obvious that this is completely out of order... hes got an ex-girlfriend in there as well doesn't he? Its sleazy as fuck. I hope she figures out a way to sue the shit out of him.
I haven't seen anything anyone has said about this, let alone Swift, but it seems obvious that this is completely out of order... hes got an ex-girlfriend in there as well doesn't he? Its sleazy as fuck. I hope she figures out a way to sue the shit out of him.
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rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
ok sorry, i should really just agree that yes it is sexist.
but hes got his own wife in there! and her arse is out.
im not sure its quite as hideous as lena dunham might want us to believe. she equates it with rape culture. id perhaps equate it more with revenge porn. or nude celeb fakes. which is what it is. neither of which is good, but its also more than 'just' that.
but hes got his own wife in there! and her arse is out.
im not sure its quite as hideous as lena dunham might want us to believe. she equates it with rape culture. id perhaps equate it more with revenge porn. or nude celeb fakes. which is what it is. neither of which is good, but its also more than 'just' that.
droid
Well-known member
But that's her Raison D'etre! And its her choice and presumably she consented.
Revenge porn is the closest analogy. Really puerile & nasty stuff.
rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
ok im going to try and actually watch this when i get home before commenting any more on it.
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
They're simulacra though, its not the real thing. Her own nude form has been a part of visual gags she's done through her art, at her own discretion of course. And the reality is, there's probably been nude 'parody' art or 'fetish' art of more than a few of the individuals in there. These celebrities don't truly have ownership of their forms and bodies, those are the domain of erotic fantasy and speculation and judgement for everyone who looks at them. Kanye is maybe one of the few who can 'profit' off this on such a larger scale against Dunham or any other possible objector's will, but when you engage in this sort of celebrity culture it becomes par for the course. How much of the outrage is because its this video or because Kanye is no longer considered 'trustworthy' or 'nuanced'? Was he ever to begin with?
To say the music video is the testimony to some newfound realized level of misogyny is dubious, 808s & Heartbreaks is just as misogynist, the expressions are just bolder and not the mere castaways of 'bars'. There's a lot to say that Kanye wants to call himself "Pablo", if its after Picasso (who I'm sure he loves, you merely need to look at the cover of 'MBDTF' for that). Was Picasso's grotesque abstractions of prostitutes not in some way misogynist?
Unless the guy says anything though, to call this 'revenge porn' is presumptive to the insidiousness of intent. Kanye is going to naturally be obsessed with Cosby in the way that he feels parallels with Cosby in being a black man who has become vilified both by his own people and outsiders in America, the same way he maintained empathy for Chris Brown when that guy was a kid dealing with national media judgement and the continuous demand for atonement.
And after all, 'Revenge Porn', is what actually happened to Kim Kardashian with Ray J after all, something that made Kim the celebrity she would become. That music video is a lot of things, but I don't know if you can call it that.
To say the music video is the testimony to some newfound realized level of misogyny is dubious, 808s & Heartbreaks is just as misogynist, the expressions are just bolder and not the mere castaways of 'bars'. There's a lot to say that Kanye wants to call himself "Pablo", if its after Picasso (who I'm sure he loves, you merely need to look at the cover of 'MBDTF' for that). Was Picasso's grotesque abstractions of prostitutes not in some way misogynist?
Unless the guy says anything though, to call this 'revenge porn' is presumptive to the insidiousness of intent. Kanye is going to naturally be obsessed with Cosby in the way that he feels parallels with Cosby in being a black man who has become vilified both by his own people and outsiders in America, the same way he maintained empathy for Chris Brown when that guy was a kid dealing with national media judgement and the continuous demand for atonement.
And after all, 'Revenge Porn', is what actually happened to Kim Kardashian with Ray J after all, something that made Kim the celebrity she would become. That music video is a lot of things, but I don't know if you can call it that.
rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
i will admit, the fact lena dunham defended her BBF taylor so much just makes me want to defend kanye (even though hes become a bit odious) even more.
droid
Well-known member
If some sweaty hand wants to fill a tumblr up with his biro'd drawings of Taylor's arse thats one thing - a major celebrity putting a hyper-real dummy into a video - something else entirely.
Youre really reaching now. These aren't just words, he has literally objectified a woman without her consent. Took her actual naked body - not an abstract representation or symbol - and presented it to the world in a eroticised context for his own profit and benefit. Picasso couldnt be more irrelevant.
Yeah, its great the way he maintains empathy for rapists, sexual predators and guys who beat the shit out of their girlfriends. A real plus.
Was it? According to him, she was the last person to have the tape.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
droid otm,
i'm finished with kanye, he doesn't deserve a moment more of my attention
i'm finished with kanye, he doesn't deserve a moment more of my attention
rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
ok i have not watched it, but i find it weird that THIS video is what would drive ppl over the edge about kanye.
that whole last album was full of this kind of BS.
the yeezus album had many moments of nastiness.
and yet THIS is what gets people in a tizz.
weird.
kanye has become a nasty, sad little, twisted man, but taylor swift is not some poor, defenceless, powerless woman.
its not like kanye took upskirt shots of her and posted them online.
it is an artistic rendering of her.
why is it so diff now he has named and depicted an actual person rather than some broad, general, sexist 'bitch' abstract?
that whole last album was full of this kind of BS.
the yeezus album had many moments of nastiness.
and yet THIS is what gets people in a tizz.
weird.
kanye has become a nasty, sad little, twisted man, but taylor swift is not some poor, defenceless, powerless woman.
its not like kanye took upskirt shots of her and posted them online.
it is an artistic rendering of her.
why is it so diff now he has named and depicted an actual person rather than some broad, general, sexist 'bitch' abstract?
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sadmanbarty
Well-known member
I haven’t seen the video and probably never will. As I understand it, it features a roughly equal number of men and women sleeping naked.
I presume nothing in the video implies that any violence has been inflicted on the women, nor does it imply that anything that’s going on isn’t consensual.
They used people’s likeness, both men and women, without consent.
I’m not quite sure why people are saying it’s misogynistic.
I presume nothing in the video implies that any violence has been inflicted on the women, nor does it imply that anything that’s going on isn’t consensual.
They used people’s likeness, both men and women, without consent.
I’m not quite sure why people are saying it’s misogynistic.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
1) So presumably the women are being sexualised and the men aren't. You could say that about the big bang theory. You could say that about most media. Not saying that's right, but this video shouldn't be eliciting any more reaction than anything else.
2) You're applying your moral condemnation of people's perceptions on to the focus of those perceptions. By that logic a woman's body is inherently misogynistic, because people are going to judge it by different standards to men.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
I've seen clips but I'm not going to put any effort into trying to find it, so I'll likely not see it. It may well be extremely misogynistic, but from what I understand of it, it sounds relatively benign.
People have to be very careful not to view male sexuality as inherently predatory and (more importantly) female sexuality as inherently victimising or exploitative. (that's not necessarily addressed at you guys, just a general comment on the commentary surrounding the video).