VICE magazine's G. MacInnes in The American Conservative

[dominic]

i'm not going to ridicule you for liking the article qua list (though if a short list such as this is the best you can do for demonstrating the magazine's worth, then surely you're reaching . . . )

and, yes, even in the drugs issue the article about the heroin addict w/ a phd in advanced sciences had a certain kind of "humanity" to it

nor can i claim to have read all that many issues of "vice" magazine

yet the overall vibe that i get from "vice" is misanthropy, knowingness, smirk smirk smirk, guffaw

human beings as nothing more than pleasure/pain networks, albeit w/ a few clever types and the billions rest lumpen and stupid

 

[zhao]

sure they sometimes have a "cooler than thou" demeanor, but honestly, you don't? you don't look at someone in a Dave Mathews Band t-shirt and think "clueless moron"?

the best thing about VIce, as someone already touched on, is that there is a real balance of many many different attitudes. regularly there are articles which express the anger and frustration we all feel and regularly there are very touching bleeding heart pieces.

their no-agenda agenda is perhaps the most relevant stance someone with a brain can take these days.

 

[blissblogger]

I came across a bit aggy there, I apologise...

I don't like the use of the words "Paki", "Chink" and suchlike, I must admit. However, perhaps using these words in the flippant, satirical context that VICE do can make people question their prejudices? ).

read lester bangs on The White Noise Supremacists, his stinging auto-critique of his own attempt to "defuse" racial and homophobic epithets lenny bruce stylee -- je demolished all these arguments back in 79

Vice is part of a long, tired tradition that goes back through Answer Me to Punk magazine with Legs McNeil

that said, i love 'do's and don'ts' and the mag can be real funny and does have a 'voice', and a couple of the writers (notably, unfortunately , g mcinnes) have real style, in part because they've removed any and all internal censors and just let their inner repulsiveness sprawl and ooze

which sounds 'courageous' and ballsy until you realise

it's just more white men rolling in the shit of their own privilege and entitlement innit

despite running the show white men are full of rage and hate, it's really strange -- someone wrote quite a convincing piece last year arguing that the heartland votes for bush out of spite! against their own interests, but out of pure spite!

it's unbelievable that people are still banging the anti-PC drum as if PC now (or indeed ever) had some kind of hegemonic strangehold on the culture

also interested in this ideology of humour as excusing everything vs these mythical 'humourless feminists/radicals/etc' ... A/ cos most of the feminists, radicals etc i've ever known have been very witty and very merry sorts, and b/ because it's a very specific kind of right-to-humour that's defended here, a humour rooted in Other-directed aggression, stereotype, demeaning, vindictiveness etc. ie. jokes about Irishmen being thick. immigrants, gays etc. it's obvious when you'd watch say Andrew Dice Clay performing to a crowd of bellowing and braying male 'ugly americans' that what you were witnessing wasn't really about laughter or humour, but some kind of ritual exorcism of anxieties and projected self-loathings...

 

[henrymiller]

technically a polanski

On a slightly related, but kinda unrelated note, did Sugar Ape magazine from Nathan Barley (the series from Channel 4) make anyone think of Vice?

well, the awesome ep 5 had sugar ape's 'vice issue', didn't it? with the underage models being molested by the staff but it was okay because they were 'in on it,' only they kind of weren't (and not, in fact, underage). the series totally nailed the 'ethos' of vice and co.

jonatton yeah?: "i hope we haven't offended *absolutely everyone*"

 

[3underscore]

I would like to think that the current issue of vibe would promote many here to admit that it is culturally and morally bankrupt. To hear that a certain article has been published, and in the style it has, would offend many here.

Those who have seen it will know what I mean.

 

[henrymiller]

oh, go on, fill us non-east-london peeps in!

 

[dominic]

the nick kilroy piece?

 

[3underscore]

the nick kilroy piece?

Exactly Dom. It truly shows they have no idea of a line which shouldn't be passed. I found it quite sickening that they did it, especially with the postscript note in the style they did.

 

[Andy Capper]

Hey this thread is great for publicity.

This one goes out to all those crying about the Nick Kilroy article...

Were you friends with Nick?

Nick was a friend and actually volunteered to write that piece for Vice. When he died we asked the people closest to him for permission to run the picture and the article. They consensus was: "yes, that's what Nick would have wanted."

So, in what way did you find it "sickening"? You think we shouldn't have mentioned he'd just died?
Pretended he was still alive and OK? Ignored the fact that a contributor and a friend had died of an OD?
You don't think that article will make people think twice about going down the same road as Nick?

Let me know your thoughts cwybabies.

 

[henrymiller]

omg roffle 'cwybabies'. pathetic. anyway, i didn't know nick kilroy and haven't read the article but pretty much stick a hypodermic in vice and you'll get find something to hate. like a woman being descibed as 'walking rape deterrent'.

 

[3underscore]

Hey this thread is great for publicity.

This one goes out to all those crying about the Nick Kilroy article...

Were you friends with Nick?

Nick was a friend and actually volunteered to write that piece for Vice. When he died we asked the people closest to him for permission to run the picture and the article. They consensus was: "yes, that's what Nick would have wanted."

So, in what way did you find it "sickening"? You think we shouldn't have mentioned he'd just died?
Pretended he was still alive and OK? Ignored the fact that a contributor and a friend had died of an OD?
You don't think that article will make people think twice about going down the same road as Nick?

Let me know your thoughts cwybabies.

Vice find the time for the article after his death. When was it written? Was the main thing that promoted the publication the handiness of tapping an epitaph on the end, in the classic last line hit that Vice so enjoys?

For me Vice has always tried too hard. It starts off as being close to the bone, and now all the flesh is gone because it has done that too often, it has just carried on grinding down to the marrow. Your friend has died, and Vice chooses to acknowledge it in a typically agit provocative style. Beats an obituary in Vice land, I guess. Most publications seem to have made do with them for quite some time...

To be honest, I am at least glad it was printed following consultation - I had my doubts, as that kind of article is exactly how the magazine appears to position himself. Did I know him personally? No. Had encountered him? Yes, I had.

And the fact that someone found it sickening? Maybe not my best choice of words, but it made me pretty uncomfortable about the whole article, everything. But wasn't that your aim?

Thanks for responding Andy, but maybe some justification rather than a string of questions next time?

 

[Yoghurt Sothoth]

Hark, Filthlets Dear Unto Mine Tentacled Mass

Know What Ye Of Sickening, Mortal?

Many Mortals Such As Thyself Do Balk And Cringe At The Filth Which Permeates This Realm. Prithee, Keep In Thy Mind That All Art Natural Upon This Plane, All Filth That The Mortal Doth Imbibe, Ingest, And Inhale Art The Wondrous Palate Of Nutrientious Filth Which Aboundeth Here.

Indeed, Where Art This Entity, Death, Of Whom Thou Dost Speak?

When Mine Minions Begin Festering Within The Mortal 'gut', Death Hath Already Come And Gone! I Should Enjoy Meeting The One Which Doth Sow The Fields Of Filth Among Mortals For Mine Minions To Relish!

Much Art 'new' And Yet Also Art Much 'same', Mortal! For In The Span Of 'time' Over Which Mine Mass Hath Existed, I Hath Seen Many Burgeoning Clusters Of Putrefaction Emerge, Wither, And Fall To Dust Upon The Plain.

Regardless, The New Filth Art Oft As Savoury As The Old, For Unlike The Mortal 'wine', The Filth Art Homogeneous And Rather Consistent In The Largest Of 'pictures'.

For Whether The Grassy Meal Consumed By The Sheep Art Urinated Upon By The Passing Wildebeest Or Horse Or Cattle, It Is Thus Consumed, Its Sustenance Absorbed, Its Nutrients Converted To That Which The Host Might Utilize.

All, Therefore, Art Good, So Long As The Filth Doth Flow!

I And Mine Minions Would Hope The Grogans Surge Forth From Thy Buttocks With Mighty Purpose And Direction!

 

[mms]

the nick kilroy piece?

i knew him and thought it was quite fitting, that's what he was like and it was a bit spooky.

 

[Dubquixote]

...have real style, in part because they've removed any and all internal censors and just let their inner repulsiveness sprawl and ooze

which sounds 'courageous' and ballsy until you realise

it's just more white men rolling in the shit of their own privilege and entitlement innit

despite running the show white men are full of rage and hate, it's really strange -- someone wrote quite a convincing piece last year arguing that the heartland votes for bush out of spite! against their own interests, but out of pure spite!

it's unbelievable that people are still banging the anti-PC drum as if PC now (or indeed ever) had some kind of hegemonic strangehold on the culture

...what you were witnessing wasn't really about laughter or humour, but some kind of ritual exorcism of anxieties and projected self-loathings...

Removing one's internal censors and letting one's inner repulsiveness ooze, rolling in the shit of one's own privilege, white people's self-loathing, exorcism of anxieties, etc... Unpleasant as these things may be, at least somebody is telling the truth! That's the whole idea. It's called VICE. PC does have a stranglehold on the culture of Vice's target audience. White people, in urban America in particular, ARE full of rage and frustration about being white, boring, privileged, despised. Granted there's a place for civilized, polite, constrained discourse. But too often politeness is just a veil and a lie.

The heartland did NOT vote for Bush out of spite, or ignorance, and it's that sort of condescension toward Red State America that confirms just how paralyzed the left is right now. They may have voted against their own interest in a number of ways, but voting against affirmative action, social welfare, gay marriage, and the UN was (whether explicitly or implicitly) very much a vote to protect traditional white political and cultural power. Blue State America needs to lose the attitude that those stupid rednecks in the South didn't know what they were voting for when they reelected Bush & Co, that they were unwitting accomplices who were merely manipulated by terrorism fears, etc.

 

[dominic]

i knew him and thought it was quite fitting, that's what he was like and it was a bit spooky.

to me he was simply an abstract friend of other abstract friends on the internet -- a name i had often seen mentioned while reading woebot or k-punk or hanging out on dissensus -- so i have no real opinion on the nick kilroy piece -- was merely trying to clarify 3underscore's reference

though i might add that i had never before heard of a single drug in the nk piece, which made the piece weirdly intriguing and at the same time morbid

as for vice magazine as a whole, my position is that it's a guilty pleasure -- i have serious problems with it, and yet unlike most magazines i will actually read it if it falls into my lap

and that's probably what the editors aim for, and what the name of the magazine means = something to read while on the toilet -- so here reception neatly corresponds with intention

 

[dominic]

White people, in urban America in particular, ARE full of rage and frustration about being white, boring, privileged, despised.

nice comment -- should provoke more discussion -- not that i agree w/ all you say or anything

i think there is rage and that the rage has everything to do with being boring = most of us become deadly boring and yet none of us would freely choose this fate

(not sure if the rage directly relates to being white and despised)

and the sense (and reality) of privilege results in guilt even as you feel enraged = can't feel properly enraged b/c you know you're privileged = the complex dubquixote identifies as "rage and frustration"

i think vice magazine caters not to this complex of feelings but to being white and privileged and despised = others despise "us" and we despise "them"

not sure if vice magazine has any direct connection to the rage that comes from being a boring person, except to provide cheap entertainment and to say, in effect, that everybody "else" is also deadly boring and pathetic

The heartland did NOT vote for Bush out of spite, or ignorance . . . . They may have voted against their own interest in a number of ways, but voting against affirmative action, social welfare, gay marriage, and the UN was (whether explicitly or implicitly) very much a vote to protect traditional white political and cultural power.

yes, but don't you think that the corporate elite has nothing but contempt for middle america and systematically fucks it over?

or is it simply the cold logic of capitalism?

move all manufacturing jobs, all customer service jobs abroad -- and then wipe out all local business by building walmarts and fast-food franchises

or maybe i don't quite grasp how the american empire works -- i.e., run insurmountable trade deficits w/ no apparent consequences other than unfavorable exchange rates for privileged americans traveling abroad or importing 12" records

(maybe the trade deficit is simply a kinda tax that we impose on the rest of the world -- what other countries must render unto caesar)

in any case, no matter which party is in power, the landscape of middle america becomes more and more desolate, more and more desperate

so perhaps the red states vote to maintain their cultural power b/c they know their economic position is going to worsen regardless

 

[dominic]

Removing one's internal censors and letting one's inner repulsiveness ooze, rolling in the shit of one's own privilege, white people's self-loathing, exorcism of anxieties, etc... Unpleasant as these things may be, at least somebody is telling the truth! That's the whole idea. It's called VICE.

errrr, no -- this is called sharing or popularizing or legitimating a perspective -- not telling the truth

i was rightfully taken to task upthread for striking an portentous tone when i said vice magazine was about perspective and not about the truth

but now you've given me grounds to make this point again

(i think it's called vice b/c it's a guilty pleasure, not b/c it has anything to do w/ the supposedly wicked truth)

 

[dominic]

White people, in urban America in particular, ARE full of rage and frustration about being white, boring, privileged, despised

why do you say in "urban America in particular"?

and how does this relate to red state/blue state voting patterns?

 

[Dubquixote]

why do you say in "urban America in particular"?
and how does this relate to red state/blue state voting patterns?

Urban whites who read Vice are classic blue staters: who live in more racially/socioeconomically diverse places and are more likely to be afflicted by white guilt. They are disliked or treated cooly by many in the black and Latino communities.

yes, but don't you think that the corporate elite has nothing but contempt for middle america and systematically fucks it over?

or is it simply the cold logic of capitalism?

move all manufacturing jobs, all customer service jobs abroad -- and then wipe out all local business by building walmarts and fast-food franchises

or maybe i don't quite grasp how the american empire works -- i.e., run insurmountable trade deficits w/ no apparent consequences other than unfavorable exchange rates for privileged americans traveling abroad or importing 12" records

It has been an interesting role reversal this past election that the Democrats fell on the side of trade protectionism, while Republicans were in favor of global trade. Also Democrats were suddenly against debts and government spending, while traditionally small government Republicans were spending wildly.

It may be the case that the cold logic of capitalism always screws the working class, but the mood post 9-11, considering the worsening recession and deepening military commitments, left most people in the middle-class American right convinced that sacrifices were required to defend America and return it to its former position of economic, military, and moral strength, and that the cost of the Democrats' perceived softness on defense was too great. Just my take though.

 

[zhao]

it's just more white men rolling in the shit of their own privilege and entitlement innit

I'm not saying that this is not a good point or indeed the fact of the matter, but if you are going to dismiss something on these grounds you might as well dismiss A LOT of other things in western culture too. such as Mozart. or Davinci. (who were able to practice their art because of their privilege, who merely provided services to the rich and powerful)

I believe in judging something by the set of criteria which follows it's sphere of function. and not by if the person who made it is white or black or rich or poor.

ofcourse privilege plays a major role in the making of and distribution of culture, and it's disgusting when some rich white idiot gets his while real talent is ignored, but this is not the case of Vice.

did you read my recount of the beginnings of Vice a few posts up? they didn't start it on no trust fund that's for damn sure.