Hip-Hop Culture Wars

[rubberdingyrapids]

ill need to listen to it again first as not heard it in years but but i think its really underrated - its basically tribe responding to slum village, but without sounding like they arent tribe anymore, they changed how they flowed, experimented with different flows when they could have just stuck with their usual patterns, and they adopted that dilla sort of syncopation but still kept the typical tribe drum sound.

i dont see how it was desperately commercial (its actually their artiest, most conceptual album, sonically) - find my way was a bit more R&B, but it wasnt like stressed out with faith evans on the BRL album. TLM was actually pretty NON commercial as an album at that time - it had a pretty unified sound, which was rare at that time in rap when albums started to have a bit of everything on them, and the sound itself was definitely not what was being played on the radio. de la were getting more boring, but tribe were actually interested in doing something new.

 

[luka]

Dilla basically produced that album you know

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

but they still made it sound like tribe - its all about that kick drum sound
doesnt change anything though

 

[CrowleyHead]

thats an interesting read crowley but youre basically just reinforcing the usual idea that what's ruling, and dominant is best, and anything that isn't, deserves to get shitted on and mocked.

Not quite that, let me try to reframe my argument.

The same way there's a 'hardcore continuum', populist movements happen that regardless of their levels of commercial success have a certain cultural significance in music. I mean, lets consider how trap exploded; it wasn't because of Rick Ross doing BMF and having the highest sales ranking for that music at the time, it was Flocka's mixtape run leading into Flockavelli.

And lets make no mistake, Tribe was from a commercially point DOMINANT, but had become culturally more or less old hat and while I don't think Tribe deserve to get mocked, they deserve de-mystification to some regards. So does Wu-Tang, so does Nas, so does a lot of my and canonical rap icons. But you do that by placing them in their proper contexts, not by doing reactionary "BAAAAAH, 90S RAP IS TERRIBLE, LET ME LISTEN TO CHEF KEF" bullshit like a lot of say, my blogger peers did years back.

What I'm trying to do is point that no matter what the quality of the music, it was starting to seem antiquated and out of step with its environment. Rap moved away from the Pete Rock sort of 'open-skied' sound of the open 90s to the murky feel of Da Beatminerz and Rza, and even though Tribe was still Tribe (nobody suddenly decides the people you give albums that do hundreds of thousands of copies to is worthless overnight), what they were doing has lost its appeal. It was no longer FRESH, to put it in overtly hip-hop terms.

Some people recognized this, look at the Gravediggaz album. Prince Paul saw the Rza style emerge, loved it, and did a hand at it. So many of those beats are Paul, but they sound like great Rza pastiche, because he saw the progression and he went there. Same way he would later do 'trip-hop' with the psychoanalysis album because why would Prince Paul go and do say, Jiggy Rap, that's regressive on a beat soundpoint, and he's a sample flipper not a drum programmer so he wouldn't have done well with the Tunnel Banger world. Its strains developing in contrast, all within the commercial realm, all oppositional but all within the same dialog. At the same time, he met them halfway because obviously he wasn't going to do an album glamorizing gangster rap themes, so he met Rza on his rejection of the industry via metaphor of death and resurection and how Frukwan from Stetsa and Poetic were bonding with Rza over 5%'s spritual themes. Obviously the fact that the MCs were more connected with burgeoning spirituality and Rza having a bit of more value at the time than Paul eventually led to the groups sort of stagnation (at least imho), but there's an example of someone following the continuum rather than attacking it.

I had a trail of thought to explain this further, but it escapes me atm.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

ok. in that case busta (who got mocked quite a few times for 'moving with the times') is the king of rap's populist continuum. or dr dre would be the producer equivalent (though maybe not so much anymore).

its weird thinking about a hardcore continuum for rap though as rap is a whole genre, while the HCC is basically like its own UK/london strand for dance music (and even in the HCC you can have remarc as well as soft stuff like omni trio). rap has lots of continuums, all vying for the top, occasionally overlapping, conflicting, absorbing each other, etc etc.

im not denying there is a populist/street continuum in rap, and while its good that the conscious gatekeepers have been overturned, a hip hop consensus that only has time for the extreme side is a bit boring.

im not into revisionism (like say how robert johnson for many is THE blues artist, despite not actually being that popular at the time, or because of that, though it would be churlish to deny how good his music actually is) but its like, yeah, everyone knows street rap is the most popular rap, where the innovations happen, where its energies are directed; i think most people know this. its not like people are still on some crusade to prove real rap is anti pop consortium while camron is a crime against hip hop lol. i feel like this is an old strawman argument that doesnt really hold much weight anymore. even a old-school-forever site like unkut is anti-old indie rap, and pro-'real street shit'. i think i am repeating myself but the tide of history is on your side. id say the battle has been won. a song called 'niggas in paris' can be a big mainstream hit without anyone blinking. its easy to cheer for the winning side.

 

[CrowleyHead]

ok. in that case busta (who got mocked quite a few times for 'moving with the times') is the king of rap's populist continuum. or dr dre would be the producer equivalent (though maybe not so much anymore).

Well Busta was a perfect example... His work with LONS initially started within the NT camp, because they were a teen rap group produced by Bomb Squad. AGAIN, same old faces. But then after LONS took that bus ride with Freestyle Fellowship and they drop "Time", they really hint at the transition. Sure, Busta was on "Scenario" but honestly, the demo for the second album is very proto-Wu Tang and v. with the trend. Busta is not a stupid man, he knows that you can't ever stay stuck.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UWtXwVPnk4o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And so Busta always moved with the times, reinventing while still thinking about how to be not too extreme that he wouldn't be taken seriously, at least at first.

im not denying there is a populist/street continuum in rap, and while its good that the conscious gatekeepers have been overturned, a hip hop consensus that only has time for the extreme side is a bit boring.

id say the battle has been won. a song called 'niggas in paris' can be a big mainstream hit without anyone blinking. its easy to cheer for the winning side.

Its less a matter of cheering for the winning side and a matter of following the energy because by the time it was "Paris" it was already fucking easy. Flocka actually benefited from the fact that there was such a big rap internet that was attuned to southern rap at that time, and a critical realm for that... Imagine if that'd been there more thoroughly for Crunk, or even prior forms of southern rap. Or for Bay Area Rap prior to the hyphy generation. These are all really succesful forms but they don't get talked about with the passion of say an Outkast.

So here's a perfect illustration: Killer Mike. Killer Mike has been rapping essentially the same since he came out, although I'd argue his delivery was a little bit better when he was younger and focused on rapping with a bit more bellow. Regardless! Mike did not blow up in a popular consensus until el-P was involved with him. You could have TI, Outkast, anyone executive producing him, and he wasn't regarded as a serious critical contender save for a minority in the critical audience. Give him el-P, he becomes one of the biggest underground rappers.

Freddie Gibbs was not any less a great rapper when he was marketed to Jeezy fans. Give him Madlib beats, suddenly everything changes.

The problem here again is that why do audiences need the cosigns of these 'gatekeepers of the underground' (And I don't blame El or Madlib for that) to take these rappers seriously? Why is there a world of guaranteed 'album'/'career' artists that can exist out of step from the commercial world that consistently is rewarded and fed by a critical and specific commercial audience?

And furthermore, there's the issue where you have people like Jon Carmanaica pretending that more conscious rappers like J Cole and Kendrick are somehow more underground because they don't have radio profiles as strong as certain rappers, but they have the highest sales appearances. And meanwhile radio ignores the streets mostly and withdraws further and further into more pop territories. Hell, Katy Perry was getting played on Hot 97 at a certain point because she had Juicy J on her song and it was basically a Top 40 version of a snap rap record. The shit is hysterics.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

cole and lamar ARE more 'underground', though not cos of their radio profiles.

dont get the gibbs love, never have.

the best thing mike has has ever done is his verse on the stankonia album. snappin and trappin is monstrous. the monster album was under appreciated but its not quite a 1st tier DF album. i should dig it out actually. i imagine it would be a good comparison with the gunplay album. guys like gunplay and mike need an equivalent to dj premier for what they do, someone who can do what premier did for/saw in MOP. a lil jon even or lex luger maybe. basically they all deserve to make their flockaveli and its a tragedy that gunplay - from what you guys have said anyway - hasnt been able to have it.

 

[luka]

I'm thinking maybe it's not that important when a theoretical best of gunplay is still a classic for the ages

Sad though for career and legacy reasons

 

[mistersloane]

There isn't a musician in history who has given up drugs and not lost their mojo.

 

[luka]

Very true... But even if they hadn't of given up would have burned out its not like you can keep that up forever

 

[mistersloane]

Yeah totally. The Gunplay album that people wanted already came out, it was called his first 3 mixtapes.

 

[luka]

Proper Creativity and proper drug abuse is about creating and maintaining, living inside, alternative realities. Feed into each other
(not lecturing sloane, he knows, he knows)

 

[luka]

Alternative to a cardboard cutout shared reality that is not very real in the final analysis

 

[mistersloane]

It's alot about narrative; if he'd been locked up for life, then that would have been amazing. Instead they did whatever weird shit (what the fuck is that story?) and now he ends up with mediocre beats and a dead career. Strange but a shame, but I think, looking at it, he had such fire it was gonna go anyway, this transition point is weird. I wish him mega well doe.

 

[mistersloane]

Alternative to a cardboard cutout shared reality that is not very real in the final analysis

There was definitely a shock point with him though, pistol-whipping, potential ife sentence, suddenly accountant says "I'm not pressing charges", it's all kinda....you know?

 

[luka]

Yeah absolutely. There usually is isn't there? Rick Ross has a few seizures and stops overeating

 

[luka]

That's glib... But there are practicalities involved and Hard not to get scared straight when your fantasy crashes on the rocks no?

 

[luka]

Like you say gunplay had the real fire. Wileys had it too. Don't see it everyday

 

[mistersloane]

Yeah, I suspect - as with Wiley - that the fire was nipped in the bud by other shit, certainly Gunplay's story is too dramatic, see also Wiley's scar, also Wiley losing his fire pretty much after his scar. Good comparison, cos there aren't many who come through with it, proper.

 

[luka]

So when you say eg why is gunplay album a disappointment. Same voice same content same personna it's hard to put your finger on cos it's the fire