Breitbart

[droid]

Im sure it exists already, every other awful opinion or theory I can think of does.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Well my perspective is that this is such a minor issue, a minute intersection of a minority LGBT concern with feminism - that perhaps rather than pillory trans-people (who, in general have a pretty awful time of it) with awful exclusionary and abusive gatekeeping rhetoric on points of principle, that they should either support them - or if they cant do that - just ignore them.

Just popping in quickly to share this great article that shows how the legal implications of transgenderism and identity politics take this far beyond being a 'minor issue' or a 'point of principle'





Google search "rendering the sexed body legally invisible: How transgender law hurts women" by Erika bachiochi (sorry, don't know how to post links on my phone)









I challenge anyone to read this and not realize how serious a threat to women's rights transgender identity politics is.

 

[droid]

Awful... just awful, sensationalist, right wing, quasi-religious gender essentialism with a side order of freemen-esque legal hysteria, that is barely able to restrain its contempt of trans people who are described as sick or disabled.

As Reilly-Cooper puts it: “The fact that some humans are intersex in no way diminishes the truth of sexual dimorphism, any more than the fact that some humans are born missing lower limbs diminishes the truth of the statement that humans are bipedal.”

Like the transgender’s attempt to alter his given body to better fit his ailing mind, the abortion activist seeks to distort women’s given bodies to fit into a culture ailing in its hostility to dependent children.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Yeah the abortion bit seems dodgy, admittedly didn't read to the end. Still agreed with most of it though. Obviously not written by a feminist. But the points about legal implications are good I think.

 

[Benny Bunter]

You do realize intersex and trans are not the same thing though right?

 

[droid]

I have to be honest Benny, it was so bad, I did a little puke in my mouth.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Interesting you mention essentialism as this is precisely what trans identity ideology relies on. If, for example, a person that is born male biologically but who says their 'true self' is a woman, this is basic essentialism is it not? It is based on the idea that there is an essence of 'womanhood'. In fact the only way to avoid this is to admit that 'man' and 'woman' (gender) are nothing but social constructs which are assigned to biological males and females (and also a very small proportion of those people born intersex).

 

[droid]

Which is the complete opposite of the POV expressed in the 'great article' you link to above that basically says that femininity is based more or less entirely on the physical fact that women can have children?

By gender essentialism I mean the idea that gender is defined purely by biology at birth and therefore, no matter what a trans person does, even if they change their physical appearance, they will still never be a 'real' man/woman.

 

[droid]

But I really dont know why you are scraping the right wing barrel for provocative articles and then engaging me in punctilious semantic arguments when there are some thoughtful posts above which could do with some exploration.

 

[Benny Bunter]

I'll admit I'd just kinda skimmed the article last night. The good bits are actually quotes from radfems! (I'm obviously not a rightwing antiabortionist nut job).







Still, what's interesting to me is the point that identity politics (which are essentialist and prop up gender stereotypes even if they say they don't) have serious implications for women. As the feminist quoted in the article says, if 'female' now means 'anyone who believes they are female', how can feminists analyze the structural oppression of female persons as a class? Having a biologically female/male body determines which gender you are socialized into from birth (even if you resist it later in life), and this gender is what is used as the main tool of oppression (of females) in the patriarchy.



These are not just punctilious semantic arguments btw, they really matter.

 

[droid]

Still, what's interesting to me is the point that identity politics (which are essentialist and prop up gender stereotypes even if they say they don't) have serious implications for women. As the feminist quoted in the article says, if 'female' now means 'anyone who believes they are female', how can feminists analyze the structural oppression of female persons as a class? Having a biologically female/male body determines which gender you are socialized into from birth (even if you resist it later in life), and this gender is what is used as the main tool of oppression (of females) in the patriarchy.

Wow, yeah you're right. The existence of a tiny minority of people who identify as trans pretty much completely removes the ability of feminists to do any kind of analysis. They must now lie paralysed in a kind of intellectual palsy, unable to undo the gordian knot of trans identity which has utterly dismantled their entire critical framework.

 

[droid]

What a terrible fate to be cognitively castrated by the very existence of the trans other.

Female Eunuchs, rise up and reclaim your gender!

 

[Benny Bunter]

I think you underestimate how influential identity politics is becoming.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Also what you just said is kind of sexist but whatevs.

 

[droid]

I think you underestimate how influential identity politics is becoming.

I think youre underestimating how awful your arguments are becoming.

Seriously.

 

[Benny Bunter]

I think you underestimate how influential identity politics is becoming.

As in:

Opening up of safe female only spaces (public restrooms in USA for example) to anyone who identifies as female

Publically funded surgery, hormone treatment and puberty blockers for very young adolescents (if you google detransitioned people for example you will see some heartbreaking testimonies).ie, people are taught that there is something wrong with their bodies rather than society. Often those that regret reassignment treatment have found the effects to be irreversible. That is why feminists are critical of medicalised approaches to gender dysphoria (just as they are of young women feeling the need to have plastic surgery/ boob jobs etc to fit into the patriarchal idea of what women should look like)

The point is its not just some minor issue and its not above criticism either
. And criticizing the ideology that supports these things does not mean you hate trans people.

 

[Benny Bunter]

I will also admit when I'm wrong - should have read the article properly before posting, and I don't endorse everything in it. Still I stand by the points I've made here.

 

[droid]

As in:

Opening up of safe female only spaces (public restrooms in USA for example) to anyone who identifies as female

So? is there a single case of a woman being molested or interfered with in a toilet by a trans woman? This is another non-issue boosted by the hysterical right.

Publically funded surgery, hormone treatment and puberty blockers for very young adolescents (if you google detransitioned people for example you will see some heartbreaking testimonies).ie, people are taught that there is something wrong with their bodies rather than society. Often those that regret reassignment treatment have found the effects to be irreversible. That is why feminists are critical of medicalised approaches to gender dysphoria (just as they are of young women feeling the need to have plastic surgery/ boob jobs etc to fit into the patriarchal idea of what women should look like)

The point is its not just some minor issue and its not above criticism either
. And criticizing the ideology that supports these things does not mean you hate trans people.

Sure, and google 'abortion regret' and you will also find thousands of heartbreaking stories. Im also struggling to see how anyone is 'taught' to be trans. if society creates and imposes gender norms on people, then how does it also do the exact opposite at the same time?

BTW, could you please stop using the word 'feminists' without the qualifier 'some'?

 

[Benny Bunter]

So? is there a single case of a woman being molested or interfered with in a toilet by a trans woman?

Well yes actually there is, but that's not the point. It's not just about trans people (although listening to many trans activists you'd think the entire world revolved around them) it's about men in women's spaces. How on earth is a woman who is, quite understandably worried about indecent exposure/sexual assault in bathrooms and changing rooms, to know who is a genuine trans person who means no harm, and who is just a male sexual predator? (of which there are plenty of cases right?) Are they expected to be psychic? How is anyone to know?


Having exclusively all-gender bathrooms isn't the answer-look up what happened at Toronto university last year.


I totally empathise with trans people feeling uncomfortable and threatened in bathrooms too, but it should not come at the expense of female-only spaces.


I guess a possible solution is to have a mixture of all-gender and women-only bathrooms/changing rooms.


It's a tricky issue with no single answer that will please everyone, but for you to call it a non-issue just shows your own ignorance, sorry.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Sure, and google 'abortion regret' and you will also find thousands of heartbreaking stories. Im also struggling to see how anyone is 'taught' to be trans. if society creates and imposes gender norms on people, then how does it also do the exact opposite at the same time?





?

You really gonna conflate abortion with gender rreassignment? You're ok with drugging children who don't conform to gender roles? Nice one mate



Society doesn't teach anyone to be trans, it teaches gender conformity. The fact that people rebel against this is unsurprising. The problem is not people's bodies but society's intolerance of anyone who falls outside these roles.