is it really so wrong for me not to vote?

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
More from Mansoor

Criticisms of the kind you mentioned, which are at any rate put forward out of sympathy for the Left, conceal the main reasons for the failure of the radical Left in parliamentary systems, and condone its parliamentarian illusions especially in European countries. The reason why the radical Left seldom gets anywhere in the elections is not, as the democratic critics of parliamentary democracy would have us believe, that they lack resources to make propaganda, or that the elections are not democratic, or that the mathematical formula for the allocation of seats in relation to the number of votes functions in favour of the big parties, and so on. The reason is that the voter, and first and foremost the large masses of the working class, have a more realistic and less illusory picture of the place of elections and parliament in their lives. They know that the elections are not the means to fundamental changes in society, that the class owner of political power is not determined through elections, that the maximum expectation from the parliament is to help local reform, and that the elections are not over the life or death of capital or capitalism. They know that elections are about a minimal increase or decrease of their share of the possibilities of the existing society during the next electoral period. They are aware that the outcome of the elections of the parliament would only be a more or less faithful reflection of the balance of power, which already, outside the parliament and outside democracy, has been established among the classes.
The workers might be conscious enemies of capitalism, but in the general parliamentary elections they vote, not for the party which is for a revolution against capital, but for the Left faction of the bourgeoisie itself, that is, for the party which, as they see it, is indeed in a position to improve their conditions in relation to the already functioning capital. If fundamental changes are not on the agenda – as the very act of elections, parliamentarism, and the existence of a non-revolutionary situation make the people understand – then it is quite natural that the deprived masses, who have no alternative but to be satisfied with reform, should vote for reformist personalities and parties within the ruling class itself – personalities and parties that, as they see it, have the actual possibility to bring those reforms about. The problem of the Left is not that the allocation of the seats is not proportionate to the number of direct votes, or that the neighbourhood Trotskyist party does not have equal possibilities for propaganda to eventually secure one seat out of four hundred. The problem is that, under normal circumstances, the workers do not regard someone who wants to become a member of the parliament for four years from a revolutionary position against capital a good representative for pursuing their interests through this particular channel. People know and observe the rules of the parliamentary game, except in a period of revolutionary crises – that is when the parliament is no longer a legislative assembly in a stable society, but a platform for political manoeuvring and legislation. One of the most important of these rules is that the winner of the class game is known beforehand; otherwise the game itself will be over altogether.

This is key. Noone considers the left to be revolutionary, within the parliamentary process except for nutcases like margerie taylor green and middle class hacks. The only way in whi ch a left parliamentarianism could work as a tribune, as a simple rejection of every proposal and every legislation offered, at all times. Given no left wing party would do this, then it ends up being like a match between Manchester city and Bournemouth. The win is decided from the outset by the material conditions, even if the exact result, per se, is not.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
you're over thinking it. lesser of two evils is simply that neither candidate is in line with your beliefs and desires, but one of them is not quite as misaligned as the other. one candidate holding four positions I disagree with versus an opponent who holds just one or two I disagree with. I still dislike the latter, but I dislike the former more. and for lack of a better third choice, I hold my nose and vote for the latter.

This is, however, precisely the subtle distinction I'm making. My or your views are irrelevant, if politics as such is pursued to its rational absolute. It is post-hoc because we are not voting for rotating recallable deligates who can be withdrawn at any point, but for representatives in a national assembly. We are surrendering our will to the representatives which see fit to interpret that collective will. Your ideals do not matter, however much liberal or conservative they may be. Insofar as they matter, they only matter as a bloc. And the concept of a bloc already dumbs down the importance of significant differences - I.E: how do you maintain a power bloc? Through compromise, renegotiation and dilution. Appeal to the greatest possible constituency with the least possible controversy. So, for instance, when people lament Sleepy Joe betraying his promises, what they fail to realise is that it is never possible for a politician to hold power and concede to the whims which will see him annihilated. We would all love politicians to keep scoring own goals and destroy this whole rotten farce with their own hands, but we don't have the self-preservation instincts they have.
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
the old perverted Marquis

In addition, hypocrisy, teaching one craft and guile, facilitates countless crimes; your disinterested air invites trust, the adversary lowers his guard, and the less you give him to suspect you are armed with one, the easier it is to drive home the dagger. This covert and mysterious manner of thus satisfying the passions increases a thousandfold the enjoyment you derive from them. Cynicism has its piquancy, I am aware of it, but it does not lure into your net, it does not assure you victims as certainly as hypocrisy does; and then too, effrontery, all that comes under the head of the criminally crapulous, is not truly to be savored except in debaucheries. These the hypocrite, secure within the four walls of his house and his solid reputation, may perfectly well indulge in once he has answered the requirements of his libertinage—surely; who’s to stop him? But it will be generally agreed that elsewhere than in the sanctuary of the home cynicism is out of place, it is bad form, in poor taste, and by creating a breach between society and yourself, it incapacitates you for the enjoyment of all society has to offer.
 

sus

Moderator
Cutting edge of voting tech, for anyone interested.


I’m not familiar with Snapshot, but this is the sort of thing you may want to support if you feel like your individual voting power is insufficient.
We just integrated snapshot into our platform actually
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Cutting edge of voting tech, for anyone interested.


I’m not familiar with Snapshot, but this is the sort of thing you may want to support if you feel like your individual voting power is insufficient.

Oh, certainly my objection to voting is not that of it not mattering individually, but precisely because it matters so much to individuals that it is useless. The individual no longer exists! It is just a modulated experience, crime only serves as the lubricity of lust so long as one believes in this aristocratic phantom.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
This is an interesting point. There's definitely an assumption among some that if Labour got in and just weren't as corrupt as the Tories then everything would run smoothly.
Nothing in that I disagree with. I'd just add I think that winning power is also just as hard and requires more discipline than the Left had.

Ruthlessness as well. Blair succeeded 'cos he was a cunt, and prepared to ditch people when needed without a second thought.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Then they would see that running a state machine is tough business and not based on the whims of a few moralists with self-indulgent, slapdash theoretical habits.
They would have learnt fuck all and spent all time in government blaming other people for their own failures until it all crashed in a smoking ruin. The Lab right, the Media, the Je... sorry, "the Israel lobby", Tories, vested interests. Anyone but themselves.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
They would have learnt fuck all and spent all time in government blaming other people for their own failures until it all crashed in a smoking ruin. The Lab right, the Media, the Je... sorry, "the Israel lobby", Tories, vested interests. Anyone but themselves.

You're saying the quiet bit out out loud! That was exactly what I want to happen. If the system is rigged against us, why not work to torpedoing it? Look at the tories forcing the three line whip on their mps, even they are in crisis. Why not hasten it even further?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
If you live in the UK and don't vote then you're a Tory by proxy
I can see why someone who lives in an ultra-safe seat (whether they support the party that always wins that seat or not) might feel that voting is a waste of time. Of course, the flipside of that is that, if everyone felt like that, there would be no safe seats.

But that's FPTP for you.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
If you live in the UK and don't vote then you're a Tory by proxy

tbf that accusation doesn't bother me in the slightest, anti-toryism is the most pro-tory stance in the end and results in one playing the game on their terms, better to be against british capital, in whichever form it comes, labour or tory or wetdreamdem.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
this whole country is tory, in other word. especially those who think by campaigning for an opposition they are not. The tories are not *just* a political party, they are the foundation of this countries world outlook, they are (in essence) the absorbtion of the old feudal aristocracy into the uncultured bourgeoisie. It's why labour can never truly be anti-monarchist, because it would be rightly defined as treason, even though as a political party they have every right to.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I get where he's coming from though - to be steadfastly anti-Tory reinforces one end of the dialectic. We're defined by that which we hate as much as that which we love.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
All the pro-Labour people on here (which is everyone I think be it Corbyn, Starmer or whatever - apart from Jon perhaps) are still kinda conforming to the game, and expecting or hoping for some sort of deliverance by political means. It's a frame that reflects class background - expecting or wanting the world to be fair, rational, responsive to your needs. And I'd include myself in that tbh. Third positions himself outside of that which strikes me as a more radical position, and not hamstrung with naivety.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I get where he's coming from though - to be steadfastly anti-Tory reinforces one end of the dialectic. We're defined by that which we hate as much as that which we love.
I get that too, but is it really more pro-Tory than, say, actually voting Tory?

(Obviously I'm taking things literally again like some sort of total imbecile.)
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I get that too, but is it really more pro-Tory than, say, actually voting Tory?

(Obviously I'm taking things literally again like some sort of total imbecile.)

In some senses it's even more pro tory. Votes only last for their allotted parliamentary time, political outlooks can last decades, sedimenting in the unconsciousness. This is why for instance corruption is really no big deal in older eastern bloc or middle eastern societies, because everyone is expected to be corrupt, politics is seen as hedging bets rather than pursuing a moral vision. Not that I think that approach is the right one, I mean my family obviously wouldn't have come to the UK if so. But there is a tendancy in British political life to start out by conducting appeals to politics on principle, and historically speaking the rest of the world just hasn't operated like that.

They do this for remembrance day as well. I couldn't think of a more dishonourable and vile way of remembering workers who (pointlessly) shed blood for you than to have an ultra-commodified, superspectacle commemoration. Completely unethical, completely vomit inducing.
 
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wild greens

Well-known member
to be steadfastly anti-Tory reinforces one end of the dialectic

No. The incumbent Tories are clearly deeply corrupt and largely immoral providing it works in their favour, fiscally, and the status quo is maintained. I am anti-Tory in this regard and quite pleased to be so- if you want to lay back and take it on the chin you crack on.

Now- if you want to start talking about a dialectic then let's break that word down Plato- we are now investigating or discussing falsely held beliefs and attempting to arrive at the truth? Okay.

Quality of life for those in lower wage brackets is on the downward turn and has been for years, foodbank use through the roof, the NHS is being stripped right in front of you, the right to legitimate protest has been removed, and now it's also clear you can lobby for private firms in clear view of everyone else, take backhanders everywhere, and effectively get away with it unless the papers get onto you. The Tory party will attempt to support these actions on your behalf if you are one of their own, unless it is going to affect their own graft, in which case you will end up with a decent consultancy job somewhere down the line anyway, so no worries. This doesn't even take into account larger human rights violations like deporting Windrush generation, migrant boats in the channel etc.

If you wish to remain in paralysis you can, or you can desire an alternative to the status quo of living in a Tory-governed society. Dismissing the only clear route to societal change as a fallacy based around a concept of a "tory country" is an easy way to assume moral or intellectual superiority whilst allowing the current incumbents to run roughshod over the basic human rights of this supposedly "free" capitalist society. I understand the appeal of assuming you know better than the proletariat- oh I won't vote it's pointless, I am intellectually superior- but it's an indicator of a victim's mentality. It's subjugation rather than a supposed radical viewpoint.

Back to the dialectic, I am happy to be anti-Tory- fuck em- and always have been. If you have a chance to vote someone else in, you should. Without that opportunity what are you- a pointless figure getting shafted by a ruling class and doing nothing about it. If you want radical upheaval go for it. I am yet to see that occur, so it's pointless bluster isn't it.

On a local level Tories are no different. For my sins I've lived all over the country in various Tory & Labour-run councils and I will tell you categorically that the roads in poorer areas in the Tory councils I've lived in have been shot to fuck. Youth services- gone, outreach programs- gone, social housing- fucked, under-funded schools. Etc. You can tell the difference the moment you start moving around these places. It comes from the top down and they don't give a fuck about the layperson. We can all agree with that.

Now- voter turnout where I lived before this gaff was less than 40% in the local elections we were there for. Tory council. So in this scenario, a conservative led system has managed to convince 60% of the borough that voting is pointless and the councillors drew a wage and did very little to uplift the area at all. Ignoring his deep gabber knowledge, a lot of people in that area clearly had the same mentality as third and where did it get them. Personally, I earn a decent wage, had an alright house, there was no direct problem for me there really. But half a mile down the road was a fucking mess. It is allowed to happen.

So- to vote Tory in that area for the directly affected was effectively acting to fuck yourself over, as was abstention. The evidence is on your doorstep that the incumbents have done you no favours, you continue to allow yourself to be fucked, and then theoretically type on the internet that you are aware of the situation but we are all powerless to stop it so why bother. How radical. If you are attempting to do something outside of the system then crack on. But it's all talk isn't it.

Now, I'm not pro-Labour in it's current guise, nor do I particularly think that the current scenario is going to change if by some miracle the current candidate ends up in genuine power. But just because the current opposition is shite does it mean that the concept of democracy is invalid, or that you should give up hope in the potential of change?

No wonder we are in our current predicament.

*

An aside. The main thing the current opposition continually fails to grasp is that realistically the only true British political weapon is not conservatism and pandering to it, it's humiliation. You have a sock-puppet in power with Boris, who by all accounts can barely even shit straight, but because he's willing to take the piss out of the opposition he runs riot over them. All you need is a decent bit of guile and a willingness to go for the jugular and you'd take him down a peg in a matter of weeks. The metaphorical high-road is a load of shite and it's not even something the current opposition are even any good at anyway.

It's sad that no-one is just willing to go for it. Instead you have ruddy faced Keir running along with everything they say- oh I support your covid plan A thoroughly prime minister. The current "media policy" reaction (irrelevant anyway) to this current sleaze scandal is jpegs that say "one rule for them". It's embarrassing.

It is in this regard I do agree with a point you both make- the piety of today's mainstream opposition is akin to being a societal cuckold really, and I can understand viewing yourself as ineffectual in this scenario, because the opposition are for the most part. I'll shake your hand and watch while you fuck everyone over. But that doesn't mean a vote should be irrelevant, it just means that Starmer and his ilk are, really.

Didn't mean to type that much
 
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