Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
OK, well it might surprise you that I agree with much of that. (Edit: reply to subvert's last big post.)
On the point of "cultists" and "fanatics", I'm happy to take back what I said about you earlier, given your comment:
"That's not to say that there aren't grounds for criticizing Corbyn. Obviously there are."
However, as a general comment, I maintain that the point still stands. This is because I know, or used to know, people who'd probably regard you as an infidel even for conceding this much. I'm thinking of the erstwhile friend I'm no longer in contact with, and another person who (while insisting he hates racism with every bone in his body) goes on mad rants on Facebook along the lines of "FUCK OFF TORY JEWS", because to him, a "Tory" is anyone who is any less pro-Corbyn than he is (such as David Baddiel or David Schneider, for example). And if anyone deserves to be called cultists, it's these sorts.
And on the other side, yep, it's certainly frustrating to encounter these people who are sure there is *something* totally wrong about Corbyn but can't quite put their finger on it. I hope you accept now that my position is a bit like Dan's, in that I'm actually all in favour of a lot of what Corbyn thinks and stands for, and can make coherent arguments for why there are some other things I don't like about him, even if you don't agree with all of them.
As for where we go next, I think Rich and sufi are on to something about treating Corbyn as a stepping stone to another leader who can maintain the progressive momentum (or Momentum, even) but who is a bit more palatable to voters. He has, at the very least, managed to shift Labour's own Overton Window a good deal to the left, for which he deserves credit. Should the worst come to the worst on the 12th, I just hope the Tories' factionalism and general incompetence limits the amount of harm they can do until the following election. What I'm particularly terrified of is them taking a leaf out of the GOP's playbook and going on a spree of voter suppression and gerrymandering.
On the point of "cultists" and "fanatics", I'm happy to take back what I said about you earlier, given your comment:
"That's not to say that there aren't grounds for criticizing Corbyn. Obviously there are."
However, as a general comment, I maintain that the point still stands. This is because I know, or used to know, people who'd probably regard you as an infidel even for conceding this much. I'm thinking of the erstwhile friend I'm no longer in contact with, and another person who (while insisting he hates racism with every bone in his body) goes on mad rants on Facebook along the lines of "FUCK OFF TORY JEWS", because to him, a "Tory" is anyone who is any less pro-Corbyn than he is (such as David Baddiel or David Schneider, for example). And if anyone deserves to be called cultists, it's these sorts.
And on the other side, yep, it's certainly frustrating to encounter these people who are sure there is *something* totally wrong about Corbyn but can't quite put their finger on it. I hope you accept now that my position is a bit like Dan's, in that I'm actually all in favour of a lot of what Corbyn thinks and stands for, and can make coherent arguments for why there are some other things I don't like about him, even if you don't agree with all of them.
As for where we go next, I think Rich and sufi are on to something about treating Corbyn as a stepping stone to another leader who can maintain the progressive momentum (or Momentum, even) but who is a bit more palatable to voters. He has, at the very least, managed to shift Labour's own Overton Window a good deal to the left, for which he deserves credit. Should the worst come to the worst on the 12th, I just hope the Tories' factionalism and general incompetence limits the amount of harm they can do until the following election. What I'm particularly terrified of is them taking a leaf out of the GOP's playbook and going on a spree of voter suppression and gerrymandering.
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