The Uyghurs

[DannyL]

I don't have much idea what's happening out there. I've seen defences of China from the usual suspects and I've always thought "does this chime with my intuitions about how big powerful states treat minorities?". The answer is normally, no it does not.

We've got the occupation of Tibet if we want to run a comparison on the Chinese state's treatment of dissent.

 

[william kent]

I don't have much idea what's happening out there. I've seen defences of China from the usual suspects and I've always thought "does this chime with my intuitions about how big powerful states treat minorities?". The answer is normally, no it does not.

We've got the occupation of Tibet if we want to run a comparison on the Chinese state's treatment of dissent.

We've also seen how protesters in Hong Kong were treated.

 

[DannyL]

I guess also my reaction is coloured by responses to the situation in Syria, which has often been to deny atrocities, defend fucking horrendous regimes and so on. Not just from the authoritarian Right but from sections of the Left as well. So that makes me doubly suspicious when I see shit like the Tweet above.

I mean "eradication"? Who's getting eradicated? Yes, I'm sure it's just "bad ideas" with no collateral damage. Large States just don't act like that.

 

[william kent]

I guess also my reaction is coloured by responses to the situation in Syria, which has often been to deny atrocities, defend fucking horrendous regimes and so on. Not just from the authoritarian Right but from sections of the Left as well. So that makes me doubly suspicious when I see shit like the Tweet above.

It's the kind of thing that gets grafted onto someone's broader aims and arguments and which is evaluated for its utility in that regard,

"Does this incident help or hinder my political goals? If the former then I'll use it, if the latter then I'll downplay or ignore it."

 

[DannyL]

I mean, maybe, just maybe the Chinese state has found within itself the ability to act unlike any other state in the history of the World and the Uighyrs are fucking jumping for joy in their camps but ....y'know.

Not to say we shouldn't be extraordinarily cynical about how this is deployed in terms of US foreign policy. We've just seen how deep the commitment to democracy in Afghanistan has been.

 

[Mr. Tea]

We've got the occupation of Tibet if we want to run a comparison on the Chinese state's treatment of dissent.

It's funny, I distinctly remember a period in the late 90s, when I was at high school, when Tibet was the cause celebre among Western progressives. I guess it was the interval between the fall of apartheid in South Africa and the Second Intifada. But it was massive, and a really hip cause to be into - the Beastie Boys organized a whole series of Free Tibet music festivals.

These days you don't hear about it from one year to the next.

 

[luka]

It's also not obvious how states should deal with these problem tribes. Presumably not exterminate them but on the other hand there is no possible way to accommodate genuine nomadism, for example, in a modern capitalist state. Bad news for aborigines, Gypsies, Mongolians etc

 

[luka]

States have to, or certainly feel they have to, cohere to some degree.

 

[DannyL]

It's also not obvious how states should deal with these problem tribes. Presumably not exterminate them but on the other hand there is no possible way to accommodate genuine nomadism, for example, in a modern capitalist state. Bad news for aborigines, Gypsies, Mongolians etc

Yeah, that's true. I thought it was mainly a religious difference behind the internment though, not nomadism? I might be wrong, know so little about it.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I don't think they're nomadic, though.

 

[william kent]

It's also not obvious how states should deal with these problem tribes. Presumably not exterminate them but on the other hand there is no possible way to accommodate genuine nomadism, for example, in a modern capitalist state. Bad news for aborigines, Gypsies, Mongolians etc

Maybe states should reevaluate their assessment of what is and isn't a problem.

 

[Clinamenic]

But in general it does seem like the nomadically inclined are tough to account for, politically.

 

[Clinamenic]

The whole notion and implementation of citizenry and civil participation would seem to be predicated on the assumption that the civil subject is stationary, no?

 

[luka]

I don't think they're nomadic, though.

They're not no

 

[Clinamenic]

To say nothing of how the civil subject's values and beliefs differ from those of the incumbent local demographic.

 

[luka]

Maybe states should reevaluate their assessment of what is and isn't a problem.

Separatist movements will always be a problem

 

[luka]

They're not no

It's just a good example of a way of life which by its very nature falls into opposition to the state

 

[Clinamenic]

Separatist movements will always be a problem

Which can be interpreted as the manifestation of a dynamic collective reacting to a static (or at least sluggishly dynamic) legal constitution.

 

[luka]

Then you add in the propensity of foreign states to use your restless natives against you

 

[Mr. Tea]

I think anyone in China is part of a "problem tribe" if they have an ideology that can be seen as being in conflict with absolute rule by the CCP, or the cultural dominance of the Han majority. So that could be a religion (Islam, Christianity, Falun Gong), Tibetan independence, the Hong Kong democracy protestors, or the mere existence of Taiwan.