ghost
Well-known member
I had "Tokyo in the 80s" in the post but I edited it out… still, impossible to ignore the role of Kowloon Walled City imo
Overall "aesthetic" systems
- Thread starter IdleRich
- Start date
woops
is not like other people
specifically Metal Hurlant, featuring the art of Jean Moebius, to whom Jodorowsky was a kind of personal guru.
This is a brilliant observation. Almost worth its own thread. Maybe we've already covered it somewhere. He goes on to say cities are our most characteristic technology.
There's a chapter in Open Sky (Virilio) where he writes about the importance of the discovery of millions of years of history beneath our feet, the sudden depth of geological time, 'deep time'. The awareness alone being a drastic reconfiguration.
IdleRich
IdleRich
The thing about sci-fi often making the mistake of showing gleaming, brand new cities instead of things that are the result of older places evolving? It's a great point yeah, it means that almost all sci-fi (if it's set in a city) takes place in the Milton Keynes of the future. And I guess ninety percent of us don't notice it, certainly we wouldn't be able to put our finger on why these places feel wrong, but maybe subconsciously they do - and not just cos we don't wanna be in Milton Keynes.
A bit like the famous optical trick in Last Year at Marienbad where the people have shadows but the trees and bushes don't. Most people find those shots weird but they can't say why.
IdleRich
IdleRich
I always find something odd or contrary about how, as our techniques in archaeology and related fields grow we now know more about various old and ancient settlements and even civilisations than did people who lived much closer to them in time. Or at least we think/hope we do.
IdleRich
IdleRich
Maybe not reduces your options as such, but it's like it gives you a ready-made, off the shelf start at least. So you get a default option for lots of things, which of course you could overrule if you wanted to - though you have to make sure your version fits with everything else in your creation ie keep it consistent - but if you prefer, you don't even have to bother thinking about this, which likely means that, unless the thing in question is central to the plot then you're not not gonna change it.
I think a lot of cyberpunk books, films etc take place in a sort of corporate dystopia with gigantic companies being the equivalent of countries. I take that to be a low-level, background, but always there, criticism of capitalism.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
This is what I don't get about steampunk: where's the 'punk'? There doesn't seem to be much that's very punk about an aesthetic that mainly seems to be a fetishization of the industrial revolution, along with - probably, given the era - an implicit endorsement of imperialism as well?
(Ugh, that last bit sounds so Guardian I think I just did a bit of sick in my mouth - but you see what I'm saying all the same right?)
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
It's a level back from that, right? A fandom wants stuff that's specifically within the universe of the thing that they're into. Like you could write something that dovetails perfectly into the aesthetic of Warhammer 40K, but if it hasn't got the Emperor and Chaos Marines and Orks and Necrons and all that stuff then it's not part of Warhammer fandom, even if it appeals to a lot of the same people. Whereas for people who are into an aesthetic - whether it's a classic subcultural one or a weird semi-synthetic internet one - the aesthetic is basically the criterion.
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
Is it that things like mod, punk, hippy etc implicitly require a lot more commitment of your fundamental values to really identify with them? Like, being a punk is meant to be an expression of who you essentially are and to admit that you could one day move on to something else is to lessen yourself as a punk, whereas being into cyberpunk or cottagecore or vapourwave or whatever, it's basically acknowledged that it's a thing that you're currently into and could one day move on from.
IdleRich
IdleRich
I think that steampunk is related to cyberpunk and so my guess is that when there was enough steampunk stuff for it to start getting recognised someone said; it's a whole bunch of novels set in worlds which often feature the same tropes, in that respect it reminds me of cyberpunk - but instead of featuring loads of ninja computer hackers wearing tight fighting leather and having body enhancements such as robotic laser targeting eyes or cybernetic arms, we got a load of airships and people in victoriana with eye patches and steam powered prosthetic arms... so it's cyberpunk without the cyber stuff but loads of steam-powered gubbins... let's call it... duh duh duuuh... Coalted! Or maybe steampunk I dunno.
So, this is just my guess but the name is likely from the process above, probably not from someone thinking "what if we were in Victorian times except they had loads of advanced machinery that we have now but it was powered by steam - oh and the Sex Pistols were there, and the Buzzcocks too, and The Damned but not The Jam cos they were more sort of moddy".
So, this is just my guess but the name is likely from the process above, probably not from someone thinking "what if we were in Victorian times except they had loads of advanced machinery that we have now but it was powered by steam - oh and the Sex Pistols were there, and the Buzzcocks too, and The Damned but not The Jam cos they were more sort of moddy".
IdleRich
IdleRich
Maybe, not sure steampunkers would recognize or at least like your characterisation of their scene as just more shallow than punk etc though that don't mean you're wrong of course.
The more I think about it though, the more I feel I was on to something. Punks are people who go to punk gigs, listen to punk etc it's a real thing they do cos they have a life and punk music is part of it. An adjunct to a real life, however it developments from that point, cos of how it starts It feels real to me.
Whereas steampunk people - I guess - read some books and thought "I wish the world had actually been actually like that at some point and I'd been around then to be a swashbuckling pirate captain of a souped up airship, leading a carefree but noble life elegantly robbing the rich - until my relationship with a mysterious pistol packing flame-haired beauty carrying a secret steam powered thinking machine drew me reluctantly into a scandal involving the royal houses of Europe and a sinister black clad techno cult who..."
In other words a basis in fantasy instead of a music scene. And after that maybe they start wearing clothes to fit with the books, maybe meeting other fans, but always following something that is not real - whereas punk is (or at least was) an expression of something that was happening. I think that's a big difference, could well be THE difference.
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
The DIY aspect. It all looks like it was put together by hand. Just a guess. People love putting words next to each other who knows
Have you looked up the etymology of 'cyberpunk'? It doesn't sound as though much weight was put on 'punk' beyond it being shorthand for rebelliousness.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
There was big morris dancing event down at the old quay here in the spring, which I took my little boy to see (he and his mates loved and it very much got involved, which was quite funny), and I noticed that while the aesthetic of most of the costumes was fairly generically neo-pagan/hippy, a significant minority had gone for a steampunk look, which sat rather oddly with all the leafy Green Man/Mother Earth imagery, I thought.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
That makes sense, although I bet people were selling off-the-peg steampunk couture almost from the moment it was noticed as a phenomenon. Nothing new about that, of course - they're sellin' hippy wigs in Woolworths, man.