Action Films (especially fighting ones)

IdleRich

IdleRich
This truly is an action film post; it could go in the Butler thread or the Stath one but really it's more general - I don't think we have such a thread but... now we do.

Anyway, this isn't really a coherent point or anything, it's just a load of stuff I thought about yesterday after my unplanned immersion in this stuff.

To be honest, here I'm talking about the fighting types of action film. I suppose the genre as a whole is often considered to have begun with The 39 Steps which is the first famous film (there may have earlier ones that are similar but I can't think of them and they are less renowned so it seems as good a start as anywhere) where they pretty much did away with plot, or at least relegated it to a few minor scenes which tied together the action spectaculars - needless to say, compared to Hardcore Henry or Crank it looks like Checkov as the inevitable demand for bigger, better, harder, faster and more kicked in and ramped up and up and up.

Yesterday I was kinda under the weather, plus it was pouring down all day, and I sat and watched film after film on telly. It was really an action bonanza with a Stath one in there, the Butler one Gamer, Godzilla (couldn't make it to the end - which is something of a shame cos it wisely started off with a long, slow and atmospheric build up before finally showing the monsters and quickly becoming very boring), Alita Battle Angel(!), The Hunter's Prayer and maybe another too... and I also watched two episodes of Will Kent which is a fairly violent detective show which on this occasion involved quite a lot of fighting.

By the end of the day, whenever I closed my eyes I saw flying fists - from the vaguely plausible Hunter's Prayer in which one man single-handedly takes down a crime empire but really only tends to fight two or three at the same time while moving at an almost believable speed and sustaining actual injuries; to the totally bananas Statham vehicle Safe in which a homeless tramp suddenly remembers that he is an elite undercover assassin and goes on an extraordinary spree of violence in which he destroys the Russian mob, the Chinese mob and NY's corrupt police force, regularly blasting his way through ten or twenty at a time with sickeningly hard punches, horrendous twisting arm-breaks and heads being smashed into walls and car doors left right and centre (the trailer for The Beekeeper looked almost exactly the same); the quite literal computer game violence of Gamer; and then the kids' film Alita in which a young girl in the body of an invincible space cyborg battled her way numberless other slightly more vincible cyborgs.

And I began to wonder if maybe people who complain about violence in films have a point. I started to feel down about the sheer number of evil people betraying civilians and their mates at an alarming rate. Even though the characters were for the most part paper thin, the sheer negativity of almost every single one of them began to weigh on me.

One necessary component of these films is a terrible and ruthless baddie so each film has to show this by having a scene in which they kill an innocent victim. I remember as a child watching The Spy Who Loved Me and I realised that the bad guy was ruthless cos he dropped a failing subordinate into a shark pool - but that doesn't cut it now, the villain has to torture a whole family or set fire to a load of school children so we cheer when he's finally dispatched.

One recurring theme yesterday was redemption for the hero by saving a young girl - in the Hunter's Prayer the main guy is an assassin sent to kill a child but has a crisis of conscience and saves her instead, putting him up against the posh crime lord; in Safe the Stath is happy to be a human punching bag given up on life until he sees the Russkis who murdered his family trying to kill a young Chinese girl whom he saves and tows around with him while massacring countless hapless henchman - same as in HP in fact; in Alita, although she becomes the hero she is first saved and taken under the wing of a cyborg doctor and secret hunter killer played by Christopher Waltz; no actual girl on screen but Butler's character does it all for his wife and after-thought of a daughter it occasionally remembers to mention.

I dunno how common this trope is, but it occurred to some extent in all of yesterday's films.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
Have you seen any of the John Wick films? There was also just a remastered re-release of Old Boy, I believe, but I missed it.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Bond is one of the archetypal action heroes and to me there may well be a place for one kinda annoyingly confident, handsome, slick hero with impossibly glamorous clothes, cars etc, equally at home in a casino or five star hotel as he is in jungle warfare or in an upside-down hangglider machine-gun battle.

But now they're all like that - Bourne, anything with Tom Cruise, anything with Marky Mark... a bunch of smiling psychos who have no problem committing brutal multiple murder one minute and then switching to being a sexy lover man the next. If any of these guys had a real psychological evaluation it would quickly show that they were higher than Ted Bundy on the psycho scale... at least that's kinda plausible with Cruise.

The other problem for me is the boringness of extended fight scenes, apart from all the dead bodies the fight scenes really are just a huge choreographed dance, which you sort of get an admission of with Jackie Chan and maybe Jet Li I guess. If that's your thing fine, but for me I just see loads of arms flying and faces breaking, gunfight scenes are even worse, I really find myself just waiting until the smoke clears and then working out what happened. Luc Besson's Anna which I saw recently was particularly bad for this - oh no, now I feel I've got to mention all the female ones - Salt, Atomic Blond etc - though really what's to say, they're the same, apart from it's even more implausible when you see Jolie's twig thin arms throwing enormous Russian heavies across the room and punching through three inch steel (probably).

Has anyone seen these John Wick films? For me the real nadir, just so fucking boring with no jeopardy at all. In Bond or whatever you know really he's gonna win but - as apparently in the new Mission Impossible when he motorbikes off a cliff - there are moments when you think (just like Alan Partridge) "He can't get out of this... James Bond is going to die!" - but then he doesn't. But those John Wick films, it's quickly established that even if the odds are a thousand to one and they surround him with machine guns pointed at his head, he can still fight hic way out. After that it's a just a procession of protracted versions of the same scene occurring over three films at the mandated "action" points.

Anyway could probably say more, all of the above is pretty much completely obvious I'm sure, so obvious that we never say it... but, build on it for me please, or, you know, if you disagree, come at me bro, let's see what you got.

As you can probably tell, I quite enjoy it as a popcorn kinda genre, I just flicked on the telly and there is the Stath again, so, if you do say something but I don't reply for ninety minutes or so, that's why.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
That was a bit too negative... what are the best action films? Can we get together a top ten? Off the top of my head two good ones are... Terminator 2 and Crank
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I also wonder about how much people such as Statham who always play these roles start to think that they are really those guys. I guess they work out and do martial arts training and at least some of their own stunts too, when Wahlberg said that if he'd been one of the passengers on the Sept 11 flights then "things would have went differently" it was quite telling, and not just about his command of English.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
See later on in my novel
Yeah John Wick's strength isn't in its plot or performances, but in its stunt choreography (directors Chad Stahelski and David Leitch were stunt choreographers for Matrix and a couple others, I believe). They call the action style "gun fu" which I gather they took from the likes of Old Boy, maybe The Raid (which I haven't seen), and probably many others.

But yeah with John Wick, the great parts are the relatively long action sequences, as compared to plenty of other action films where the action is chopped up into very quick shots and likely wasn't filmed in one continuous shot (as many of the John Wick action sequences were). These films are more in the tradition of what I would call artfully over-the-top action, in the vein of Old Boy (though not as artful, in my opinion). As opposed to over-the-top violence like in all those sadistic torture films, or stupid over-the-top action like Fast and Furious (which I enjoy in a different way). John Wick films do have some stupid stuff, but even that can be fun.\

I also agree with your point about jeopardy - John Wick never really seems to be in trouble, its more like the world is in trouble as he wreaks havoc. A very different mode of story, if you can even call it story ("story" here is just a series of staging scenarios for glorious gun fu).

Anyway, I think if you held John Wick up to a traditional lens of critique (plot innovation, character depth and development, thematic significance, etc), it wouldn't score well. Its just aimed at a different audience.

EG John Wick does also lean into the cult of Keanu, and I'm definitely someone who can watch Keanu basically just be Keanu as he slaughters endless streams of eastern european gangsters.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
John Wick does do well, in terms of surface-level premise and aesthetics, at world-building, in my opinion. Nothing very deep or thought-provoking, but it creates this whole international world of secret crime syndicates and meta-mafia conspiracy networks and whatnot, with their own codes of honor and payment systems. Anyway, I find that interesting, and unsurprisingly suitable for franchise material (think there is a John Wick spinoff series in the works).
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Yeah John Wick's strength isn't in its plot or performances, but in its stunt choreography (directors Chad Stahelski and David Leitch were stunt choreographers for Matrix and a couple others, I believe). They call the action style "gun fu" which I gather they took from the likes of Old Boy, maybe The Raid (which I haven't seen), and probably many others.

I know the mixture of fighting and shooting was a specific sort of new style.

The thing is, the plot is soooo weak that I can't care about the choreography... it's just random images flashing on a screen. The plot of course isn't the point, but I think it has to clear a certain minimum levels.

Well... the fight scenes bored me to tears and I'm blaming the lack of engagement from the plot but maybe they are just technically amazing but also shit. Something is lacking for me. Same with The Raid in fact. Wick is fresh in my mind cos number three was on the other day and I thought I'll watch it to have an opinion, half way through I realised I'd seen it before, and I normally remember films pretty well I think.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
Yeah the plot for John Wick #1 is basically that his dog dies, which was the last living symbol of love from his wife, and he takes out a whole crime organization in revenge. Agreed, not a very engaging plot - I'm just talking about shifting into a mindset where the value is purely in the choreography, and is accented by Keanu's self-aware flatness and (comically) ever-rising stakes in terms of Wick's illuminati-like adversary.

As far as I can tell, nothing in the films aside from the stunt choreography is asking to be taken seriously.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
But would John Wick be better with an actual plot, and actual character development? Totally. If that were the case, it would rank even higher in the pantheon of action classics.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
John Wick does do well, in terms of surface-level premise and aesthetics, at world-building, in my opinion. Nothing very deep or thought-provoking, but it creates this whole international world of secret crime syndicates and meta-mafia conspiracy networks and whatnot, with their own codes of honor and payment systems. Anyway, I find that interesting, and unsurprisingly suitable for franchise material (think there is a John Wick spinoff series in the works).
I wondered if you would mention this. And I think it's a good idea but for me they did it wrong and it doesn't add up to anything, so ultimately, I was just frustrated at a good idea wasted.

Obviously a lot of people do get something from em though - and not just the people you'd expect. I get what you're saying about how applying the normal criteria for a film to rate it is just getting it wrong.

Is it like gonzo porn? It seems to me that in the seventies you had proper actual filns such as The Devil In Miss Jones and The Green Door, maybe even Deep Throat (I dunno I've not seen them) which were proper films with a plot and hardcore sex scenes. Then you got it so films were cut into scenes and each one had a bit of acting from the pool guy or the washing machine repair man before they went at it. And then you got gonzo which dispensed with that and the scene is just "X, y and z - double anal" - and it sort of feels action is on a similar trajectory. Does Fast and Furious have a plot? Would anyone care if it was just "Car chase on Jumbo Jet flying through a tunnel" and then after that finished it was "X fights y while they are tied to an underwater pole and a load of sharks try and eat them?"

Note to self - great ideas for scenes, make sure you remember them.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Yeah the plot for John Wick #1 is basically that his dog dies, which was the last living symbol of love from his wife, and he takes out a whole crime organization in revenge. Agreed, not a very engaging plot - I'm just talking about shifting into a mindset where the value is purely in the choreography, and is accented by Keanu's self-aware flatness and (comically) ever-rising stakes in terms of Wick's illuminati-like adversary.

As far as I can tell, nothing in the films aside from the stunt choreography is asking to be taken seriously.

I wonder if you asked Keanu he'd be able to remember the name of his character's dog.

But would John Wick be better with an actual plot, and actual character development? Totally. If that were the case, it would rank even higher in the pantheon of action classics.

I dunno maybe it wouldn't. Cos for me the fight scenes were boring - Crank has an even more minimal plot but the first time you see it (at the time anyhow) it is a proper adrenaline rush.

The bad guy in Crank was called The Ferret and Statham's character meets him he says "You're The Ferret I've been chasing all day" - but there's an outtake and he says "You're the faggot I've been chasing all afternoon" which implies to be that a) he never bothered to learn the name of the antagonist of a film in which he starred and b) he thought that they would have written a line where the good guy uses a homophobic slur in the denouement of the film.

Now I'm watching him play a homophobic arsehole cop, it may not be a massive stretch
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
I wondered if you would mention this. And I think it's a good idea but for me they did it wrong and it doesn't add up to anything, so ultimately, I was just frustrated at a good idea wasted.

Obviously a lot of people do get something from em though - and not just the people you'd expect. I get what you're saying about how applying the normal criteria for a film to rate it is just getting it wrong.

Is it like gonzo porn? It seems to me that in the seventies you had proper actual filns such as The Devil In Miss Jones and The Green Door, maybe even Deep Throat (I dunno I've not seen them) which were proper films with a plot and hardcore sex scenes. Then you got it so films were cut into scenes and each one had a bit of acting from the pool guy or the washing machine repair man before they went at it. And then you got gonzo which dispensed with that and the scene is just "X, y and z - double anal" - and it sort of feels action is on a similar trajectory. Does Fast and Furious have a plot? Would anyone care if it was just "Car chase on Jumbo Jet flying through a tunnel" and then after that finished it was "X fights y while they are tied to an underwater pole and a load of sharks try and eat them?"

Note to self - great ideas for scenes, make sure you remember them.
Fast and Furious have plots, very much like soap operas. Always the brother or cousin of the villain of the previous film shows up, and assumes the role of the new villain, bigger and badder. F&F does also have strong themes of family, but as you’d expect the plot is pretty predictable, nobody ever really dies, and like John Wick many of these narrative elements seem to to serve the larger strength of the film, which in this case is outrageous motor stunts and rampant high-tech mayhem.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I'm watching him play a homophobic arsehole cop, it may not be a massive stretch
I got bored of this - it's not baaaad but I've seen it before - so I flicked over and it's only another Statham thing. I'm actually sick of seeing his face at this point but I thought God was sending me a message, I didn't flick through all two hundred channels, but if I had done that, i have a feeling he would have been on every single one, like when the AI rings every phone both as he walks past in Neuromancer, or maybe a brilliantly low-brow rerub of the famous film called Being Jason Statham...

Anyway, I watched this one called Wild Card which has terrible reviews and bombed and I've never heard of it... yet I enjoyed it a lot more, he plays a bodyguard for hire in Vegas and apparently it's based on a book called Heat which has been made into a film before although not sure of the name (not the Pacino Deniro one). It was a lot more plot driven and talky and apart from one frustratingly clichéd scene - where he wins huge on the tables... and then goes back to risk it all on one hand and loses - I thought it was genuinely good.

Compared to other films where it's fight after fight after and becomes very boring, this really only had three bits where it suddenly exploded into absolutely horrendous violence, loads of bits where he would twist the arm at the shoulder to an impossible angle, snap it at the elbow for good measure and then use the floppy appendage to leverage their face through a glass bar, if I'd been quick enough I would have looked away the point where he rammed the knife right into someone's mouth and then slid it round to the ear - oof - but there many similar moments in the space of a few seconds.

Jesus it's followed by another of his films... but I'm out.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Yeah the plot for John Wick #1 is basically that his dog dies, which was the last living symbol of love from his wife, and he takes out a whole crime organization in revenge. Agreed, not a very engaging plot - I'm just talking about shifting into a mindset where the value is purely in the choreography, and is accented by Keanu's self-aware flatness and (comically) ever-rising stakes in terms of Wick's illuminati-like adversary.

As far as I can tell, nothing in the films aside from the stunt choreography is asking to be taken seriously.
It's not fucking ballet. Don't give this failed film an inch. Give it a roundhouse kick to the face.

Fight scenes used to be the corners in the roads of the movie whereas now they are the road. Action movies now are like breakcore is to jungle: they fetishise one element and create a baroque bloat out of it obscuring all the others. Supernatural protagonists have further exacerbated the overwrought fanciness of modern fight scenes with their confected ability to prance hither and thither in a trice. Once action films revert to the infinitely more realistic style of yore, decades of stylised nonsense will look absolutely ridiculous.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
It's not fucking ballet. Don't give this failed film an inch. Give it a roundhouse kick to the face.

Fight scenes used to be the corners in the roads of the movie whereas now they are the road. Action movies now are like breakcore is to jungle: they fetishise one element and create a baroque bloat out of it obscuring all the others. Supernatural protagonists have further exacerbated the overwrought fanciness of modern fight scenes with their confected ability to prance hither and thither in a trice. Once action films revert to the infinitely more realistic style of yore, decades of stylised nonsense will look absolutely ridiculous.
Didn't know you were so tradcore when it came to action films.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Modern action films are fantasy films now but then again most people's takes on reality are pretty fantastical nowadays too.
 
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