Do Human rights exist?

[vimothy]

a further problem is that, absent a massive global convergence in culture and law, there's no way to "square the circle". this tension is inherent to international law and discussions of human rights for the foreseeable.

 

[version]

Some critics view the "human-rights order" as cultural imperialism.

 

[maxi]

two problems with this. firstly, what are those universally agreed upon moral precepts. and secondly, how are they to be enforced, given that there is no top level sovereign to appeal to.

I would see human rights as the rights themselves, which exist even before we've identified them (because of a universal internal moral structure in the mind).

But yeah the term can also be used to describe the established set of moral precepts, which is then already a formalisation like the law. The right to life is one of the most basic thats widely agreed on, for example. Formally.

On the second problem, human rights are protected by law within sovereign states, not just internationally.

But internationally you have things like the UN and ICJ.

But yeah the law is only enforced when the accused party is weak and the states that want to enforce have power, and obviously its a problem.

But I cant see any argument for why the difficulty in enforcement means they should be disposed of altogether

 

[vimothy]

I'm not saying they should be dispensed of

 

[maxi]

Some critics view the "human-rights order" as cultural imperialism.

An argument often used by the elites within a group to violate human rights of the oppressed within the same group

 

[vimothy]

I'm describing the terrain

 

[maxi]

E.g islamists

 

[vimothy]

do rights exist before they have been identified? that's another interesting question. perhaps there exists an objective moral code, independent of human opinion, which establishes them. I think that's certainly possible. many people today would disagree with that, but it wasnt always so.

 

[vimothy]

but, even so, agreement on what rights were guaranteed by this universal unchanging order, was not universal

 

[vimothy]

Some critics view the "human-rights order" as cultural imperialism.

they're not entirely wrong, are they

 

[version]

they're not entirely wrong, are they

No, but I can also see the argument for attempting to extend human rights across the globe. Obviously it's gone disastrously at times and been a cover for more nefarious things, but as an ideal it seems one of the better ones.

 

[sufi]

No, but I can also see the argument for attempting to extend human rights across the globe. Obviously it's gone disastrously at times and been a cover for more nefarious things, but as an ideal it seems one of the better ones.

how has human rights gone disastrously wrong? that's a bit ridiculous

I suppose it comes down to whether you think things are generally better now that they were before. You could equally argue that things are just as bad if not worse, and that is a result of the failure of the human rights approach.

you could argue that but it's a weak troll move

 

[version]

how has human rights gone disastrously wrong? that's a bit ridiculous

Hasn't the exporting of "freedom" been one of the pillars of various American attempts at foreign intervention? I don't think you can argue they've all gone well.

 

[sufi]

Hasn't the exporting of "freedom" been one of the pillars of various American attempts at foreign intervention? I don't think you can argue they've all gone well.

No, that's nothing to do with actual human rights - at best that's a barely opaque smokescreen for standard aggressive imperialism (women in Affghanistan for e.g.)

 

[version]

that's nothing to do with actual human rights though - at best that's a barely opaque smokescreen for standard aggressive imperialism (women in Affghanistan for e.g.)

That's what I said:

"Obviously it's gone disastrously at times and been a cover for more nefarious things... "

 

[vimothy]

I think the verdict is mixed, but also that it's important, perhaps necessary, to attempt. so I agree with you both.

 

[sufi]

That's what I said:

"Obviously it's gone disastrously at times and been a cover for more nefarious things... "

yeah but actual human rights have improved countless lives (meaning HR law and the concept that HR exists, which is widely known and respected globally even if not 100% agreed on details)

and noone believed the stupid cover stories for a moment, on any side of those conflicts

 

[version]

yeah but actual human rights have improved countless lives (meaning HR law and the concept that HR exists, which is widely known and respected globally even if not 100% agreed on details)

I agree.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Do people have a right to be considered equal or are they equal?

 

[sufi]

Do people have a right to be considered equal or are they are equal?

erm both obvs