Prog.

[blissblogger]

'ardprog

>Mad rhythms, extravagant bombast, amazing sounds and textures. When listening to the farthest >out ‘ardcore, say Hyper-on Experience or Biochip C, in many ways I hear prog. To make that kind of music >you’d have to be a virtuoso before sampling and sequencers.

luvvit, that's a neat conceptual swerve. yeah a lot of those Hyper-On tracks have this multi-segmented thing, going through six or seven distinct phases (rather than caning an intro, groove, a bridge/breakdown, like most dance tracks) which is distinctly maximalist and proggoid and song-suitey. and seeing Hyper-On as crypto-prog would help explain the directions later taken in EZ Rollers and Flytronix, bland fusionoidizm with pretensions to spirituality (and horrible horrible record sleeves)

also "Lords of the Null Lines" and the sleevenotes on some of those Hyper-on eps you can see they're some science fiction reading dudes

and you can tell the Hyper-On guys have some serious musicality going on, they know keys, they know arrangement, i expect they were in bands before getting into sampling and Cubase

but on the whole the difference of ethos/sensibility is profound i think -- hardcore in the main doesn't have the sense of Grand Artistic Statement From On High/pomposity/sense of entitlement that runs through the whole prog era -- i doubt honestly if Rick Wakeman saw himself as this shallow sensationalist showboating type, i honestly fear he was trying to Say Something. There was that whole spate of records like Alan Parsons Project's EA Poe inspired album and the records by David Bedford like Rime of the Ancient Mariner.

the Terminator EP and Ghost EP though are pure hardcore-as-prog -- complete with sleevenotes on Ghosts -- and perhaps cyberpunk cinema functioning for Goldie as literature did for the prog guys, post-literate culture innit.

mostly though the spirit in your classic era of ardcore is antipretentious, there's no overblown conception of what they're doing as Art. i do see the main spirit of ardcore as very 60s small p punk, Lester Bangsoid -- and then the split then occurs that mirrors what happened to the garage punks, one lot going psych/prog, and the other lot going metal -- and that split would be roughly equiv to drum'n'bass versus happy hardcore

>Yes

actually when i listened to some of their early stuff i was surprised how aggressively played and tight it was -- i still didn't luv it, though. i think the problem relates to the pomposity/profundity-aspiration thing as mentioned above -- which is more or less summed up in Yes' case in the name 'Jon Anderson'. his high spiritualized vocals consistently irritate.

i suppose the radical move would not be to say "oh prog isn't that bombastic/selfindulgent/showoffy actually" but to revalorize those terms. for instance, listening to goblin every so often my inner punk would say 'i'm really enjoying this but it's a bit slick and flashy innit' and then i'd think 'well who says 'slick' and 'flashy' are bad qualities'. in many other areas of music -- say 70s funk -- those are good things to be.

 

[polystyle]

prog & progressive

Rding bk on the Progmetheus links , the prog blog phase , all good fun

* When Simon discussed Roy Harper and how long it took him to find and enjoy the Roy ,
in part due to preconditioning against liking that kind of music - i was reminded of how i used to run the other way when I heard the term 'Krautrock' and how that got in the way of me enjoying , let alone ever picking up or seeking out groups lumped under that term.
And having just rerd "Hammer Of The Gods" the Led Zep story - another part of brain processes
Roy as part of a Jimmy Page (and so , Led Zep) - 'Magick music' A.Crowley / Page's "Lucifer's Rising" Sdtk -
Roy Harper's 'one man and his acoustic guitar' prog /progressive genre ref. over sweep

* Enjoyed again the prog and 'progressive' section , many good points, right on Bliss

* There IS often a point where listeners say 'yes, that's good stuff ' while another group gets an 'oh no - not that' response .
I guess it's natural and takes into consideration where they are , where they were brought up ,
what they heard when they were kids , what mags , weeklies they rd , many factors .

Here in US , groups like Dust ( possibly the group from which Mark , later drummer of The Ramones sprang from , didn't ck it right now but somehow recall) were on college 'underground radio' in early - mid '70's,
and we rocked to them alongside others, but looking bk they were 'progressive' - in trying to have a new sound and 'taking heavy music (a millimeter) further along' .
Dust could be heard on alt' radio station almost every day , with other DJ's playing cuts from Henry Cow,
M Mantler , Wyatt, Eno , Kraftwerk, Roxy, Bowie etc. .

More recently a group like NJ's Old , who had a time in mid 1990's there ,
seem to have at least partially influenced a whole load of new 'math' art rock guitar based units .
I can guess Jim Plotkin of Old was not thinking about his spawn (and they are not ONLY his) bk when he was doing it , probably like some others in prog'/punk/postpunk categories , he was just doing what he heard in his head/ did what he could do with what he had in his hands - and that now that sound makes sense to a new audience .

Prog and punk are often posed as polar opposites , but isn't it all part of bigger process .
It wasn't a long line/amount of time from say , Buzzcocks to Howard Devoto's Magazine or from Pistols to PIL as punk artists moved to post punk, itself (sometimes , hopefully) inherently 'progressive' ...
a action/reaction/regroup - next action cycle.

While i'm not looking for new sounds or interesting offshoots in the 21st century's null space reflected between say, Interpol, Radio 4 , Black Dice or 'Liquid Liquid produced by DFA',
music 'progress' and the 'something you haven't heard before' factor was there/ is there in the German prog' of the first few Amon Duul 2 and Harmonia's Immer Wieder" for example.

Sorry mates , rambling now
'prog' musing on a rainy day here ...

 

[hamarplazt]

It's possible that the so-called "right-thinking people" simply may have similar reactions to different musics. Which is why many of us would, for example, be more intrigued by obscure brazillian protest music from the late 60s than say, the latest Elton John lp. It's likely not so much to do with a shared attraction to the arcane but rather with which neurons are being tickled.

To some degree it is a matter of (shared) taste I'm sure, but that can't be all the explanation. A lot of prog actually had big audiences during the 70s. Today, most rock consumers buy into the Stripes/Strokes/Hives-thing. So the question is: why is the shared taste so different now? Why isn't retro prog the hippest thing around? I'd say the way a lot of rock journalism is centered around the Lester Bang mythos is very much a part of this. The winners wrote the history books, and their view is what the new generations will learn when they try to investigate what happened in the past. I've heard the rethorics of punk-vs-prog used by people far too young to ever have been part of the battle. Would they have the same taste if they had tried everything without anyone telling them what was cool and what wasn't? Some probably would, but I doubt it would be all.

Personally, I was lucky enough to get into very different kinds of music - anything from prog to harcore techno - pretty much on my own, before I started reading about it. When I did start, I actually got doubts about my own taste. So many authorities told me that a lot of the stuff I loved was crap. Maybe it was? Well, some of it really was, but most of it just remained great and I kept listening to it until I was able to put in words why I thought it was great. I'd certainly not recommend to try to love something just to be different, but I do enjoy reversing the rethorics.

 

[hamarplazt]

and you can tell the Hyper-On guys have some serious musicality going on, they know keys, they know arrangement, i expect they were in bands before getting into sampling and Cubase.

Reminds me of an interview with Martin Damm (Biochip C/Speed Freak etc) where he said that he was brought up to be something like a wunderkind, and played organ in a local church as a child. And then he said that later, when he started doing techno, he had to unlearn it all because you didn't need to have any musicality to make techno. Almost like he wanted to hide his ability. But obviously, this must be a big part of why his music is so complex and varied and melodic compared to most other gabber and 'arcore (a bit like with Liam Howlett).

but on the whole the difference of ethos/sensibility is profound i think -- hardcore in the main doesn't have the sense of Grand Artistic Statement From On High/pomposity/sense of entitlement that runs through the whole prog era -- i doubt honestly if Rick Wakeman saw himself as this shallow sensationalist showboating type, i honestly fear he was trying to Say Something.

He he, not on Rhapsodies he wasn't. But yes, the ethos was in many ways very different (though in both cases I think there was a lot of utopian idealism and positivity at play). I wouldn't try to argue that prog='ardcore, just that there's some shared aspects. As with the 60s punk thing, there's similarities, but also differences. I'm generally very much against the idea that the developments of rave music can be analogized by the developments of rock, that every point in techno histroy will have a mirror point in rock history. Yes, in some ways 'ardcore was like 60s punk, and in some it was like prog, and in some it was like a lot of other things.

i think the problem relates to the pomposity/profundity-aspiration thing as mentioned above -- which is more or less summed up in Yes' case in the name 'Jon Anderson'. his high spiritualized vocals consistently irritate.

Ah, no disagreement about the awfullness of Andersons lyrics. But lyrics in rock music usually mean absolutely nothing to me. If they're good it's a treat, if not I can ignore them. I don't think I've ever really registered Andersons words while listening. I didn't like his voice to begin with either, but I've come to like it. And if there's a rock singer sounding like a helium diva, it's him.

i suppose the radical move would not be to say "oh prog isn't that bombastic/selfindulgent/showoffy actually" but to revalorize those terms. for instance, listening to goblin every so often my inner punk would say 'i'm really enjoying this but it's a bit slick and flashy innit' and then i'd think 'well who says 'slick' and 'flashy' are bad qualities'. in many other areas of music -- say 70s funk -- those are good things to be

YES! I've only recently accepted that I adore things that are bombastic and pompous, but having come to that conclusion is a great relief, and it makes me love it even more. I think the fear of bombast is a lot like the fear of cheesyness (well, in a way bombast is cheesyness), it's inhibiting and the cause of far to much dull, ever-so-humble music.

 

[xero]

yeah a lot of those Hyper-On tracks have this multi-segmented thing, going through six or seven distinct phases (rather than caning an intro, groove, a bridge/breakdown, like most dance tracks) which is distinctly maximalist and proggoid and song-suitey. and seeing Hyper-On as crypto-prog would help explain the directions later taken in EZ Rollers and Flytronix, bland fusionoidizm with pretensions to spirituality (and horrible horrible record sleeves)

I believe this is what some call 'through-composed', including Dizzee Rascal in a recent interview - prog grime: bring it on

 

[Diggedy Derek]

Technology argument- a lot of prog was how it is because of the golden age of hifi stereos- it didn't matter how it good it was, as long as it had that fidelity that would test out your system. And of course the system was big, expensive, so it was only fitting that the cover-art should be lavish, coffee table style. This is what they used to do in the 70s- sit around the gleeming stereo, discussing Jethro Tull over a glass of Blue Nun. I can imagine the classicism of prog seemed a great idea in these circumstances, until it became unbearably stale.

Talking of which, why did more or less all prog suddenly become awful in 1975? It was actually very like the DnB scene- so much territory had been explored, and suddenly the "progressive" ideas that artists boasted of going into stunningly pointless territory. The "danger" of prog had disappeared, just as the "rhythmic danger" of DnB suddenly vanished with the relentless march of 2-step.

 

[johneffay]

This is what they used to do in the 70s- sit around the gleeming stereo, discussing Jethro Tull over a glass of Blue Nun.

As one of a generation of teenagers with a shitty mono record player followed by a slightly less, but still very, shitty stereo who spent the mid-70s listening to Tull et al., I feel that I should point out this is absolute bollocks (no offence!).

Don't even get me started on your 1975 claim...

 

[Diggedy Derek]

Ha. Yeah of course it was bollocks in many ways. I think a lot of prog was influenced by the sound-utopias that hifi stereos offered, but weirdly there was another axis of interest in prog which was more akin to a heavy metal audience- at home in the bedroom, listening through shitty speakers, trying to imagine what the lyrics are about.

But as for 1975- there are some marked declines in some groups around then, I reckon. Genesis- from Lamb to Trick Of The Tail; King Crimson- from Red to USA (and then a long break until Discipline). Even Jethro Tull, who I hate with a passion, seemed to loss some sense of noble purpose inbetween (check the album titles) Minstrel In The Gallery and Too Old to Rock 'N' Roll: Too Young to Die!.

But to be honest, all I know about prog I've got second hand from my mate in the next office, for whom every Friday night is prog night. He whistles along to 25 minutes harpsichord solos, that sort of thing.

 

[kek-w]

On Van der Graaf's Peel Session from 24-10-77, their version of "The Sphinx In The Face" (which closes the VdGG boxset) is astonishing. Potter's fuzzbass and holyshit, Guy Evans on drums! I swear that Hammill's apparent x-over at this time to the punk environs (or at least a greater sense of economy) produced his finest moments.

Saw Van der Graff in '78, I think, and they played 'Louie Louie'...

Are they Prog? I've never quite been convinced.

 

[johneffay]

but weirdly there was another axis of interest in prog which was more akin to a heavy metal audience- at home in the bedroom, listening through shitty speakers, trying to imagine what the lyrics are about.

Shit, I didn't realize you'd met me in real life

Too Old to Rock 'N' Roll: Too Young to Die! is a fine concept album and even has a comic strip on the inside of the gatefold. You're wrong about Genesis (Wind and Wuthering is very good), but you're right about Crimson. This is the bit where I'm supposed to come out with a long list obscure post '75 albums to prove you wrong, but I'll leave that to other people.

However, I'd just like to mention Zappa. Surely people consider huge slabs of Zappa to be prog? Replies along the lines of 'He was really great until he split the original Mothers' are ruled out of court on the grounds of being patently ridiculous

kek-w, Van der Graaf Generator are archetypal prog: Thousands of screaming Italians can't be wrong! The '78 line up was admittedly a bit different, but they were still playing 'A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers' live. Let's just remind ourselves of the lyrics, shall we?

 

[heiku]

kek-w, Van der Graaf Generator are archetypal prog: Thousands of screaming Italians can't be wrong! The '78 line up was admittedly a bit different, but they were still playing 'A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers' live.

Oh dear, it appears that I parted with my copy of Vital when it was far too early in the game. Hammill's vox were wretched on that one, IIRC. But to now try imagine how "Plague" sounded with violin subbing for Jaxon's sax and Banton's keys... well, 'tis boggling.

Further to Woebot's confirming to not liking "prog proper", I'm suspecting my own tastes similarly tilt toward some concept of "improper prog." But are we speaking of a glorious degeneration of the genre (ref. the prog/punk interface, Nadir's Last Chance, Exposure, etc.) or just a breed that might be casually accreted onto prog (ref. krautrock, acid folk-- man, check the genre scope at GEPR for some crazy inclusiveness)?

And re. Zappa, I'm still convinced Ian Penman has uttered the last necessary words. Sorry.

 

[Woebot]

isnt it extremely strange how the prog groups have such an aura of import and scale!

compare something like van der graaf generator to say scritti politti. how do vdg appear to be of such bombastic imensity? ok there's the instrumental prowess, the "cosmic vision", the steep gap between perfomer and audience member.... also i wonder if (post beatles) what amounts to the indie music circuit was selling a greater number of records... but essentially there's not a vaste difference between two bands like that is there?

and yet.

 

[blissblogger]

Scritti and prog

there's a lot of similaries between Scritti and Hatfield and the North -- not just the Wyatt-esque vocals either -- and apparently that was something they listened to in the Camden Scritsquat

oh yeah there was a bigger albums market in the post-Beatles era, late sixties to just prepunk, people like kevin coyne, john martyn, roy harper could do well pretty well without ever having a hit -- and labels in those days allowed their maverick minstrels to make loads of albums without ever going mega. c.f. the mid-list author that publishers used to let carry on doing book after book whereas now they have a blockbuster mentality and will pay silly money for first novels that they think have sensation-potential)

and the major labels signed up so many groups, whenever i go digging i'm always surprising how many groups i've never ever even heard of from the 1967-75 period will still crop up. the industry was fat with cash back then.


but that econimically worked well in the early 70s for singer-songwriters, with the big prog bands the overheads from "staffing" (lotsa members) and touring expenses led to big debts for many -- hence when Fripp came back circa 78 after retiring and closing down Crimson he was touting the "small, mobile, intelligent unit" concept -- basically one man and his machines.


but going back to what matt said, that's what interests me about prog is the sense of entitlement they had in terms of making Big Statements, and the gigantism of the expression -- thinking nothing of hiring a cathedral to record in, or huge choirs.

 

[droid]

Im expecting to be laughed off the board for my lack of prog knowledge - but one act I'd recommened as 'nu-prog' is Ambulance, who released a debut LP on Planet Mu in 2002. Its an excellent Album - more classic' Mu than any of the new mashed up drivel... but the interesting thing about Ambulance, is that their production technique mainly involves building complex interlinked software tools to generate their tunes.. so all their tracks are like drawn out jamming sessions, heavy on the melodies... kind of a cross between supercollider and 'old' Autechre...

Anyway.. thats a bloody awful description.. but check out the LP.. Its called 'The curse of Vale De Lobo'

 

[JimO'Brien]

the love that dare not speak its name

but going back to what matt said, that's what interests me about prog is the sense of entitlement they had in terms of making Big Statements, and the gigantism of the expression -- thinking nothing of hiring a cathedral to record in, or huge choirs.

I think this hits the nail on the head in regard to the greatness of Yes. There is something heroic about a lorry driver from Accrington writing huge concept albums based on Indian Scripture. Anybody with the slightest amount of common sense would realise this is a terrible idea but they did it anyway.

 

[massrock]

RIP Bo Hansson.

 

[BareBones]

my dad was mates with John Anderson. When i was about 4, he (JA) hired out a whole swish hotel (or maybe just the floor, i can't remember, but whatever, it was pretty big-time) for his daughter's birthday party. It was fancy dress; i went as spider-man.

I know nothing about prog.