Goldie Looking Chain v the whole of UKHH (minus R. Manuva)

[alo]

Yeah, i was going through some old cd's because i'm moving house soon and came across some Jehst. I remember thinking he was great about 5 years ago, and Task Force as well.
I also remember Chester P saying some brusque but interesting things about the state of UKHH himself, which I thought, combined with the psychedelic cleverness and loose, brutal imagery that they traded in, might set it up for them on a bigger scale.

But going back to the Jehst cd: Piano loops piano loops and more piano loops. Have things changed recently in UKHH? I know Klashnekof is rated and obviously Manuva. (What about the last album? Didn't really rate it myself:::: I thought the Dub Reggae Electro template he was experimenting with was quality)

It certainly seems that Grime has over-taken it and buried it on most levels, especially since the sound of it is much more representative of Britain's musical history. I think maybe there was never any urgency looking back now, no forward momentum or change or electricity, more of a well crafted homage to HipHop than a new form altogether, ala Grime.

The earlier London Posse and Hijack sound was probably more interesting, no?

 

[petergunn]

20 seconds to comply!

 

[Paul Hotflush]

That new GLC tune (the boyband one) is top.

 

[gabriel]

Weird. I know Hot Chip too

me too, seems like half the people here do... lol

 

[gumdrops]

It's the tyranny of the boombap which kills UKHH, though, isn't it? The lyrics might be good, if you sit down and analyse them, but to do that you have to put up with beats so predictable they might as well not be there. Plus, the delivery of UKHH artists sounds so uniform- regular, flowing rhymes, inexpressive macho delivery, it's like listening to a school teacher giving a lecture on safe-sex (which Black Twang's G.hetto C.hildren S.ex E.ducation more or less is).

blak twang are kinda rubbish though, tony rotten is so stunted as a rapper, its amazing theyve gotten so far. i dont think the beats are *all* that predictable, i mean, if you like purist trad-NYC-hip-hop beats, then most uk hip hop producers in many ways do a better job than most of their american counterparts at this stage. thats what it comes down to really - you have to like the 90s east coast boom bap sound. its mainly a purist take on trad-rap, maybe not that unlike how you used to have blues purists, jazz purists etc etc. the uk has always bred purists of black american music.

As regards subject matter, for me there's NO FEEL of the streets at all in UKHH. It has the feel of the studio, of tightly crafted rhymes, of trying to make it sound convincingly generic enough to get radio play next to US hip hop. It sounds so insular. As for sexuality in UKHH, forget it! It's much too concerned with peer prestige to woo the ladies. An exception is Klass A's pretty wicked Ching Ching, but then again that's on Dizzee's label.

well contrary to the rep of UKHH by most as middle class, suburban, most UK rappers like klashnekoff, micall parknsun (crap name i know), skinnyman etc didnt really grow up in the middle of basingstoke or wherever. klashnekoff has even served some jail time if i remember right (hows that for some hardman street cred?). just cos they dont rap about carbon copy generic gangsta bollocks like ghetto or demon (gangsta toyz is an embarassment of cliches), doesnt mean theyre not from the same environment. theyre just a bit older, for the most part.

i swear, so many people love grime for the 'VOICE OF THE INNER CITY BLACK WORKING CLASSES' angle more than anything. it doesnt matter how shit or generic some of it is, as long as its 'REAL', its all ok. as far as this attitude that only uk hip hop is made for 'the scene', for evaluation and respect from the arbiters within the scene, thats probably true, yeah, but it does have an audience for it as well - uk rappers tour around the uk, probably just as much as grime artists do at the moment. it just so happens that a lot of the audience for uk hip hop is ageing (white) b-boys, which other white middle classers quite enjoy mocking (ditto for the age-old mockery of soul boys, sometimes justifably so, i admit).

Compare to GLC, who despite being a total mess, are chaotic enough so that their references to binge drinking and fit girls can at least take you by surprise, create a mental picture for you of them sitting in a room chatting a girl up in between hits off the bong.

I dunno, Martin is onto something here for me. I don't want to hate on UKHH, some of it is quite good, but there does seem a undeniable general trend towards mediocrity/conformity.

well i happen to like GLC a lot, and actually agree to some degree that they do offer maybe the truest take on british, or maybe i should say *english* hip-hop. to me, GLC are like the british equivalents of white american rappers like mc paul barman or ugly duckling, they kinda serve up a truer, maybe more believable, tongue in cheek english angle on hip-hop that must resonate for a lot of (white) hip hoppers in the uk who love the music but couldnt always relate to it all, i.e theyre not trying to be 'street' or conform to american standards of 'ghetto-ness' or 'hardness'/authenticity, etc. but they obviously love hip-hop, which is why they can mock it without being patronising. glc are like what i imagine a group comprised of the fatlace editorial team might sound like

not to make this a ukhh vs grime thread, but if you listen to enough grime and pirates, youll find theres just as much generic conformity to being a badman/gangsta/blah blah from grime MCs as there is for the positivity/conscious/struggling but upstanding member of the community bent in uk hip hop. and in the same way the 'our beats are just as good as the americans... were in 94' one-upmanship might get tiring and a bit too faithful in ukhh, there are just as many crappy, carbon copy grime beats being made too. yeah its a genuine 'british' sound, which is why i like grime, but it doesnt mean its all fantastic (and some vocal tracks played by logan or cameo often sound just like slightly grime-ised versions of US hip hop too)

 

[gumdrops]

The earlier London Posse and Hijack sound was probably more interesting, no?

yes. 'brit noise' etc, although you could say that was just partially a poor copy of the PE/bomb squad sound.

but london posse's stuff is classic. they made a pretty british hybrid of reggae/ragga/hip-hop and sounded like proper cockney rudeboys rather than imitations of KRS or whoever. bionic aka mad dog even popped up on tricky's juxtapose album - surprisingly, he still sounded brilliant.

and for anyone interested in the voice of the streets angle, london posse attracted a lot of the 'dodgy' element in the late 80s with tunes like money mad (but then their album was called gangsta chronicle so maybe that wasnt such a surprise)

sadly, not enough people followed up on the promise of that album, uk hip hop might have been better as a whole if it did

 

[owen]

maybe i should say *english* hip-hop. to me, GLC are like the british equivalents of white american rappers like mc paul barman or ugly duckling

1. ha, that defines exactly why i don't like GLC (nice acronym tho, they really ought to constantly play Womad-ish music in finsbury park considering) the relentless whackiness is a little tiresome, like a one-joke sketch dragged out for a career

2. i shouldn't say 'english', they're welsh.

3. the 'authentic voice of the working class' bit is overstated- most people's problem with UKHH is the plodding production and the lack of wit, personality, drama, imagination, all of which were abundant in grime (until abt a year ago in my book but am a grime dilettante so shall step down )

 

[Dusko]

i swear, so many people love grime for the 'VOICE OF THE INNER CITY BLACK WORKING CLASSES' angle more than anything. it doesnt matter how shit or generic some of it is, as long as its 'REAL', its all ok.

Of the people you're describing, I wonder how many are as outraged by grimey gun-talk and homophobic lyrics as they are by chaps like Ted Nugent? I'm guessing they don't blame 'root causes' for the latter

well i happen to like GLC a lot, and actually agree to some degree that they do offer maybe the truest take on british, or maybe i should say *english* hip-hop. to me, <b>GLC are like the british equivalents of white american rappers like mc paul barman or ugly duckling</b>, they kinda serve up a truer, maybe more believable, tongue in cheek english angle on hip-hop that must resonate for a lot of (white) hip hoppers in the uk who love the music but couldnt always relate to it all, i.e theyre not trying to be 'street' or conform to american standards of 'ghetto-ness' or 'hardness'/authenticity, etc. but they obviously love hip-hop, which is why they can mock it without being patronising. <b>glc are like what i imagine a group comprised of the fatlace editorial team might sound like</b>

I think you nailed it there. I know far too many people who view the injection of humour into music as something that should be avoided at all costs. Personally I'd rather llisten to GLC's "Taxi" (or whatever the tune is about the dodgy cabbie) than a below-par grime track where some young ruffian bangs on about the likelihood of him shooting me when I find him in bed with my girlfriend and my mother. But there we are.

Also, I wonder how many UK hip-hop heads are more than a little annoyed by the success of the supposedly 'novelty' GLC compared to the generally poor showing of the "keeping it <strike>dull </strike> real" crews. How many label GLC as "hip-hop for indie kids", the same label that Cypress Hill got tagged with back in '93? Anyhow, I can't see Westwood inviting them round for a cuppa, despite their subject matter being considerably more 'real' for his UK listeners than the standard pap from 50Cent et al.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

A complete aside on Hijack (mentioned above) - I didn't realise they'd done a bit of a reverse Rebel MC. After their great "Horns of Jericho" LP on Ice-T's label, I thought they'd gone for good. Little did I know that:

Kamanchi Sly then went on to become Unknown MC and set up Soulfood Records in 1998 with his brother DJ Pied Piper, they went on to produce for footballer Andy Cole on his single 'Outstanding'. They managed to reached the Number 1 spot with garage tune 'Do You Really Like It'.

Gobsmacked. How did that connection pass me by?


And joining the dots between UKHH and humour:

A long while back there was another fairly classic UK hip-hop group called the "Lords of Rap". IIRC they did some track called "Wack MC" or somesuch that began with them rapping in fake American accents doing bad impersonations of a Lord Finesse-style party-rapper. Wonder what became of them? Anyone?

 

[Melchior]

its mainly a purist take on trad-rap, maybe not that unlike how you used to have blues purists, jazz purists etc etc. the uk has always bred purists of black american music.

I actually think this is fair enough, but I don't listen to UK hip hop (or in fact most hip hop) for the beats per se. I listen to hip hop for the MCs and I think that Klash and skinnyman are really good MCs, and not US purist at all.