slowtrain

Well-known member
I am reading Don Quixote.

Man, it is seriously hilarious, laughing my ass of at it.

Also trying to figure out if it is intentional or not that often the little chapter headings don't always correspond to what happens in the chapter.

Also there are two 'second parts'
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
I tried to get through Crime and Punishment earlier this year and had to put it down about half way in. His prose is so dry and bleak and unrelentingly detached. He does go on a bit, doesn't he?

I'll try and finish it when I have more time and patience for that sort of thing. I've heard he's Kind Of A Big Deal.

Its funny, i read C&P when i was 16 and found it totally absorbing and not all that difficult to read. Ten years later I picked it up and tried to read it again and I just couldn't get through it. Does anyone else sometimes feel like they're getting thicker as they get older?
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Faustus, I got a copy of Sin noticias de gurb, 20 pages in and I'm really enjoying it. I'm gonna try and have a good session reading it this weekend with a dictionary to hand. Like you did, I'll probably need to read it through a couple of times to get the most out of it, but yeah its a good recommendation, cheers! Will post again with more thoughts once i've read a bit more.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
Its funny, i read C&P when i was 16 and found it totally absorbing and not all that difficult to read. Ten years later I picked it up and tried to read it again and I just couldn't get through it. Does anyone else sometimes feel like they're getting thicker as they get older?
I read it at aroud that age and thought much the same, pretty easy to read and such, but I get the feeling if I tried now I would be all over the place...
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I tried to get through Crime and Punishment earlier this year and had to put it down about half way in. His prose is so dry and bleak and unrelentingly detached. He does go on a bit, doesn't he?

I'll try and finish it when I have more time and patience for that sort of thing. I've heard he's Kind Of A Big Deal.

Hmm, I'd definitely agree it's bleak and unrelenting, but that's the whole point! I wouldn't have said it was "dry" though, but perhaps that depends on the translation you're reading. The one I read was described on the back as being regarded as a very "accessible" version, and while the dialogue did sound a little archaic I think that's fine - I mean, it came out 150 years ago, it would sound odd it it was all like "Yo Raskolnikov, I reckon you done the old girl in, total wasteman". But the narration was fairly fresh-sounding, it didn't seem like it had been made to sound like Dickens or whatever (not that I've read Dickens, but you know what I mean).
 
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faustus

Well-known member
Faustus, I got a copy of Sin noticias de gurb, 20 pages in and I'm really enjoying it. I'm gonna try and have a good session reading it this weekend with a dictionary to hand. Like you did, I'll probably need to read it through a couple of times to get the most out of it, but yeah its a good recommendation, cheers! Will post again with more thoughts once i've read a bit more.

Great! I just finished it again. Now reading V by Thomas Pynchon, which is obv very different.

Did you know who Marta Sánchez is? (Gurb's disguise) I didn't, and it's sort of important later. Supposedly in the translation he disguises himself as Madonna.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Great! I just finished it again. Now reading V by Thomas Pynchon, which is obv very different.

Did you know who Marta Sánchez is? (Gurb's disguise) I didn't, and it's sort of important later. Supposedly in the translation he disguises himself as Madonna.

ok, just googled her, cheers for the heads up. I do get the feeling that a lot of the cultural references will pass me by. I laughed at the bit about the refuse trucks though. Its exactly the same here in Seville. i know its nice they keep the city looking clean and tidy but emptying the bottle banks at 2am every night right outside your piso seems a bit excessive. That and the incessant hosing down of the streets. I mean, don't they have water shortage problems in Southern Spain?
 

faustus

Well-known member
I laughed at the bit about the refuse trucks though. Its exactly the same here in Seville. i know its nice they keep the city looking clean and tidy but emptying the bottle banks at 2am every night right outside your piso seems a bit excessive. That and the incessant hosing down of the streets. I mean, don't they have water shortage problems in Southern Spain?

yeah, that 'humour of recognition' is quite strange. there's a later chapter which opens something like "In Barcelona it rains like the town hall acts: rarely, but madly". I found myself laughing, thinking 'so true' -

and then I stopped and was like, wait, would i laugh at something like that set in england? no sé...
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
yeah, that 'humour of recognition' is quite strange. there's a later chapter which opens something like "In Barcelona it rains like the town hall acts: rarely, but madly". I found myself laughing, thinking 'so true' -

and then I stopped and was like, wait, would i laugh at something like that set in england? no sé...

I suppose the fact that I'm an alien in Spain myself could add to the humour. I've not been here long enough to know, but would you say the Spanish sense of humour is quite self deprecating generally? I've always thought the British are quite comfortable with taking the piss out of themselves, still not sure about how the Spanish see themselves and their eccentricities.
 

luka

Well-known member
still reading gibbon. theyre going through an emperor every three months. ambitious powerful men are begging not to be made emperor knowing it means certain death. also read an introduction to paintings of london by pevesner i liked so much you can read it to....
 

luka

Well-known member
this introduction is written in prasie of the continuity of london and as a plea that, with all the lusty rebuilding going on everywhere, it will be presrved.
the city is still londinium. the roman wall-th strtches by cripplgate and london wall and immediately by the white tower tell us of Londinium, in area one of the half-dozen largest cities in the western empire, with a vast basilica, over 400ft long, and a forum close to it ad with mosaic pavements (below th bank of england for instance-), a "celebrated centre of traders", as Tacitus writes. Then the fragments at All Hallows by the Tower, as a reminder of the reduced Anglo-Saxon settlement, amid decaying ruins on so different a scale, and so to the conquest and Rufus' White Tower, one of the largest in any country and with an ovrwhelmingly powerful built-in chapel, and what is left of St Bartholomew the great, its church once extending right to the square.
St Bartholomew was an Augustinian priory and one has to visualise medieval london as surrounded with a ring of spacious monastic establishments. only th charterhouse gives still some impression of hat they were like: holy trinity aldgate, also Augustinian, southwark cathedrel once Augustinian too, benedictine nuns in bishopsgate, the cluniac Benedictines at bermondsey, the cistercians at stepney, many more monks and nuns further out, the friars closer to the centr- blackfriars, greyfriars, whitefriars, austin friars, the names alone surviving- and of course the Benedictines at westminster their abbey being the west minster.
When the abbey was being built, th tower received its double ring of curtain walling, but otherwise most of what us left us of medieval london is later, st pauls of the twelfth and thirteenth century, 585ft long, having been replaced by wren after the fire. the few remaining parish churches are in the perpendicular style. but the few fragments of town houses of the bishops and abbots, foremost the archbishop of canteburys lambeth palace are at least partly thirteenth and fourteenth century. winchester house was on the same side of the river as lambeth, ely house by holborn circus. durham and sailsbury houses of which nothing survives were south of fleet street and the strand. royal towers or castles stood along there as well: Baynards castle, the bridewell and the savoy. the guildhall got its building with th hall itself 150ft long in th first half of the fifteenth century. corsby hall once in bishopsgate and its hall now re-erectd in chelsea gives some idea of how a rich fifteenth century merchant lived, the whole composition much like that of a manor house in the country.
crosby hall dates from about 1470. at that time london may have had 40 or 50,000 inhabitants, by 1605 there were over 200,000. Elizabethan London was still a city of timber framed houses. a few in the tower and staple inn in holborn are reminders, to the west great houses of the nobility connected the city with westminster: somerset house, bedford house, burleigh house, cecil house, sailsbury house, northumberland house. some of them were proud and showy, as were now the monuments in the abbey, following after the humbler ones in the preceding century (lord hunsdon's is 36ft high) to the east stretched slums. stow writing in 1598 tells of them. the spread was such that government tried to contain london in its old boundaries-an attempt as helpless as are such attempts now: no new houses within three miles (1580) within two miles (1607) within five miles (1620) etc.
so to talk of london was no longer to talk of the city of london, and after the fire of 1666 that was even more so. for now the well to do came to prefer the safer more spacious sites of the 'west-end' to the crowded streets of the city. the pattern of the London squares began to emerge, with Inigo Jones' covent garden of the 1630s first and then with Bloomsbury square and st james' square of about 1660, and speedily many of the others. the houses were of brick-regulations against timber had followed the fire-and uniform, developments financed by the noble ground-landlords or by speculators. an example of the style in the city is in Laurence Pountney lane.
the style was initially created by Inigo Jones on th pattern of the palladio. inigo in, for instance, the banqueting house in Whitehall used and modified palladios noble classicism, with columns and pilasters and pediments over th principal windows. in th covent garden piazza its is giant pilasters he applied, his remodelling of the medieval st pauls-replaced by wrens building-culminated in a portico of columns fifty feet high. other motifs were far less pure than one might have expected, but in some of his country houses Inigo Jones established the plain brick style of the New London. t remained the accepted style, with minor modifications, right into the Regency, and it appears at Hampstead and st Twickenham as well as in th City and in the West End.
By th mid-eighteenth century it is estimated that London had a population of nearly three-quarters of a million. typical symptoms of the growth are the first by-pass road-the line of the Marylebone-Euston-Pentonville roads-begun in 1756 and st Georges circus with the streets radiating from it, laid out in yet open country in 1769. the west end now stretched through to Hyde park. apart from the brick squares and brick streets there were mansions of some of the nobility, chiefly along Piccadilly. Clarendon house and Berkeley house came first- in the 1660s-but do not remain. in fact Burlington house, now the royal academy, is the only one still extant or at least partly so. it established the Inigo Jones classicism once again. its date is 1715-6. from then palladianism ruled supreme in England, in contrast to the late baroque and rococo of the continent.
in the city the most splendid example is the mansion house by the elder Dance, as impressive internally as it is externally. the Egyptian hall (a Vitruvian term) is one of the mot impressive rooms of London. Opposite is the Bank of England, begun in 1732 as a Palladian palazzo of moderate size and enlarged chiefly by Soane in 1788-1808 with brilliant interiors, the most original ones of their date in Europe. The directors and Sir Herbert Baker swept all that away, and only th shell stands, topped by a massive but weak superstructure.
other new types of building on a large scale now became necessary, but, with the exception of st Bartholomew hospital by gibbs and th former east india company offices in leadenhall street, all outside the city: somerset house as a governmental office building, th other new hospitals, such as guy's and the th former Bethlehem and foundling hospitals, the artillery barracks at woolich, over 1,000 ft long, and also th docks. they started in 1799 and grew and spread east, right into the twentieth century. whitbreads brewery also has parts going back to 1755, and in 1801 telford designed a new london bridge, never built, which was to consist of one huge cast iron arch, 600ft long. it could have been done. cast-iron, breweries (ie beer factories), docks-we are now in the midst of the industrial revolution and its commercial concomitants.
 

luka

Well-known member
London did not grow much in the eighteenth century. the first census, that of 1801, shows for the whole L.C.C area 959,000 inhabitants. but then a growth followed as rapid as that of Elizabethan London only on an infinitely larger scale- 1,947,000 in 1841, 2,808,000 in 1861, 3,844,000 in 1881 and 4,452,000 in 1901-a five-fold increase after a century. th population of th city however in these hundred years went down from 128,000 to 27,000 and now stands at 4,595. that is th night population, th night watchman population; th day population today is estimated at 380,000 plus. so th exodus went on between 1800 and 1900. in th late eighteenth century Lamb, Hazlitt, Keats were still born in th City. In the nineteenth century one could watch the gradual decline of th private houses with shops on the ground floors. The first omnibus 1829, along the line of the by-pass road, was a portent of things to come. trams started in 1861, the metropolitan railway in 1863. king william street and moorgate were cut through from 1829, holborn viaduct was built in the sixties, queen victoria street begun in the 1867. the city architecture of the victorian age is office buildings and warehouses. one of the earliest and grandest is Atlas Insurance in King street, 1836, by Hopper. Others ar Gothic, Like Mappin and Webb in Poultry (1870) or the wild 33 Eastcheap (1877) or a free, as a rule rather undisciplined Mixed Renaissance like 23 Lombard Street (1861-74) and 39 Lombard street (1868) or of a true nineteenth century Functional, with a minimum of stone and a maximum of glass (e.g. Aldermanbury 1845, Basinghall street) Th most thrilling of all London buildings designed to make full use of glass was the Coal Exchange of 1847 with an interior displaying iron as daringly as glass. that it was allowed to be destroyed- for no acceptable reason- will never b forgiven by those who care for ancient buildings and th visual continuity of London.
As for th best of Late Victorian architecture in the City, Norman Shaw's New Zealand Chambers was bombed in th War, but his Baring Bros. in Bishopsgate still stands, though under menace to be destroyed too. Belcher's very grand Anglo-Baroque Institute of Chartered Accountants in Moorgate is still there and has been restored on the occasion of the addition of an equally grand extension in the formidable style of the 1960s. Otherwise c. 1900 is represented at its most baroque by the Port of London Authority in a kind of International-Exhibitionist style and by th Bishopsgate Institute and the Whitechapel gallery, both by Townsend and both c. 1900 at its most original.
Th twentieth century finally has done much to the city, most patently to its skyline. the height of London buildings has gone up gradually through the Victorian decades. Queen Anne mansions in Broadway, Westminster in the eighties had already fourteen stories- admittedly a unique exception. The new heights, commercially unavoidable no doubt, destroyed the skyline of the city which had until then, still as Canaletto has shown, been punctuated by Wren's church steeples. In style the City was conservative. architects went on in a kind of neo-Georgian or Imperial-Palladian right to the second world war and the first years after it. now we are in for skyscrapers-up to nearly 400 ft outside the city- but from everywhere dominating the skyline. it is changing the character of London decisively, and what has so far taken the place of traditional London is visual chaos. chaos could have been avoided if th licenses for skyscrapers had been given only in such a way that clusters rather than singles would have been built. however, financial pressures have, up to now, proved too strong. not that efforts at planning have not been made, and where they have been allowed the results are encouraging. one such area is London Wall with its six nearly identical eighteen story blocks, the lower slabs, the one higher tower and the upper pedestrian platforms and walks, another the precinct north of st pauls with its sequence of courts of divers size. Architecture on the whole of run-of-the-mill, but that is perhaps as it should be. planning ought to be more eloquent than architectural motifs.
but while these two areas herald new and worthwhile patterns nothing much has yet been done to solve the problems of traffic, and what is suggested fills one with trepidation. vast new roads will only disrupt the close-knit neighborhoods and the visual character of London and are unlikely ever to cope. what is needed instead is a drastic elimination of all but the unavoidable private wheeled traffic and free and frequent public transport instead. loading and unloading will have to be done between 7 at night and 8 in th morning.
i have no doubt in my mind that in fifty years from now people will say of us: were they blind? did they not see what was happening? why did they lack the courage to cure the evil?
 

jenks

thread death
Thanks Luka - I really enjoyed that

I just finished Pevsener's The Englishness of English Art - really great polemic - written in the fifties he still thought New Towns would be a possible way forward - Pictures of Stevenage town centre unspoilt by years of economic gloom were rather nostalgic for me as i grew up just a few miles from there and my mum was one of those who were shipped out from London to settle there. It works well alongside Romantic Moderns by Alexandra Harris.

Now reading Eugenides' new novel The Marriage Plot alongside a mjor re-read of Pound (a perrenial favourite).
Finished Coetzee's Elizabeth Costello - neitehr warm, nor comforting but good.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
An amazing polemic in this vein that I've never had chance to recommend before is Louis Chevalier's The Assassination of Paris. If you've experienced the slow destruction and denuding of London at all in the last ten years, Chevalier's essay will resonate.

Apart from that, we are wandering into Owen Hatherley territory now, which we shouldn't be doing.
 

luka

Well-known member
we are wandering into Owen Hatherley territory now, which we shouldn't be doing.

has it ever occurred to you Oliver that of the many thousands of people who wrote blogs between the years 2000-2009 me and you are the only ones never to have been awarded book contracts and journalism work?
 

luka

Well-known member
i dont have a problem with owen hatherly though. i quite approve. at least he carved out his own niche.
 

slim jenkins

El Hombre Invisible
Talking of blogging.
I've just finished Never Any End To Paris by Enrique Vila-Matas. I reckon he's a very Dissensian (?) writer, if I dare say so. Just about the most important living writer, in my book anyway. You can keep Bolano...:D;)

You can read my thoughts here if you want.
 

faustus

Well-known member
Talking of blogging.
I've just finished Never Any End To Paris by Enrique Vila-Matas. I reckon he's a very Dissensian (?) writer, if I dare say so. Just about the most important living writer, in my book anyway. You can keep Bolano...:D;)

You can read my thoughts here if you want.

i've only read a couple of short stories, but he always struck me as a bit precious.

he's massive here in spain though. last weekend i was looking for a book by an author whose surname is Villalobos, and in every shop I had to fight through shelf after shelf of Vila-Matas editions, wondering if the book I wanted might have been in between or behind. but it wasn't.
 
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