DUBSTEP- breaking news, gossip, slander, lies etc

[Flying Squid]

in practical terms, i dont know. it's fairly subjective...

You can always take a stab at it, subjective or otherwise, no? After all, almost everything in this forum is subjective, innit? I know that my blathering about Burial reminding me of Cleveland is, at least.

Personally, I think it starts with the producers. I'd imagine they'd be able to realize in the studio if an influence like dark house will take things in a new direction only to then dead end, before they'd cut it on dubs to give to the DJs to play on Rinse and in the clubs.

Of course, that's not always the case, but that's not necessarily a bad thing - being a former prog house fan, I've seen that scene's sound quality go up, down, and up again plenty of times. When something dead ends, the next line of producers realize it and develope the next sound. Though in dubstep ways, that process will probably be going even faster, so I don't think that there's cause to worry.

 

[the undisputed truth]

Who gives a fuck about 'inovative drum programming' - you sound like a fucking muso.

Speaking purely subjectively I would say the above comment was spoken like a true drum and basshead and heaven forbid that muso's actually should be making dance music or commenting on it. No that won't do at all, leave that to the press and the drugged up young pirate with his cracked software and mp3 collection.

Take for instance that 50 most influential dance music albums thread. I wonder if anyone actually asked the people who make dance music, what albums influenced them the most and for all the comments on exactly how influential they were I also wonder how many posters actually make dance music to know if it was influential to them or not ??? The speactator on the sideline does often have the better view of the game and the home viewer even better, but when talking about the game, wouldn't we rather hear from the players themselves ?

I for one give a fuck about innovative drum programming and I assume so does everyone else wanting to hear something a bit more than halfstep or a rinsed and sampled, filtered break. Can I get an amen on that ?

Without innovation and looking back asswards there really isn't much left to explore.

I've read about vex'd wanting to do more ambient beatless stuff which will be great for the bootleggers to slam a beat over as pollywog serendipitously did with the burial tune.

For me, Burial not so much tells stories given there are no vocals but sets a backdrop against which you can superimpose your own onto. Funnily enough the stories which suit the music best tend to be morbid and depressing and thats fine as i've gone back to trawling the early/mid 90's uplifting house stuff for my mid day pick me ups.

Gek...It's not his use of filters and effects or choice of beats to sample I take issue with, but the fact that he has to throw crackle in there and tweak the effects so harshly that I find more than a bit off putting and suggests that he cant actually program a beat or was so put off by El-bs 'cold' drums as to not even bother trying.

In comparison with probably one of my all time favourite and most influential albums "Massive Attack- Blue lines" it doesn't come close and I wonder if all the superlative Burial hype would have happened if he hadn't been representing sarf london. In saying that it is still one of the best albums to have come out this year which in itself is a sad indictment of the industry in general and I am very much looking forward to his collaborations with vex'd.

I agree boomonise about replication but it's almost as if one's ideas have no legitimacy unless picked up by the big heads as an avenue worthy of exploration otherwise it's a labelled a known cul de sac, gets kicked to the kerb and stomped on or ignored.

What's worse is replicating something that really isnt worth it. Personally I don't see what the fuss is about Loefahs 'mud' that everyone would want to follow that path. Maybe thats why he's taking another route as is Mala going more house.

I can't wait to get my filthy little paws on mud cos i've got a riddim that rides and counters it perfectly. I even sent him the myspace links and funnily enough it went offline also.

 

[nomos]

@ HMGovt

That's really nice to hear. Thanks I'm slated to do a mix for Droid's Blogariddims podcast series, though it will probbaly be looser and more musically varied than the computing one.

 

[Logos]

Speaking purely subjectively I would say the above comment was spoken like a true drum and basshead and heaven forbid that muso's actually should be making dance music or commenting on it. No that won't do at all, leave that to the press and the drugged up young pirate with his cracked software and mp3 collection.

Take for instance that 50 most influential dance music albums thread. I wonder if anyone actually asked the people who make dance music, what albums influenced them the most and for all the comments on exactly how influential they were I also wonder how many posters actually make dance music to know if it was influential to them or not ??? The speactator on the sideline does often have the better view of the game and the home viewer even better, but when talking about the game, wouldn't we rather hear from the players themselves ?

I for one give a fuck about innovative drum programming and I assume so does everyone else wanting to hear something a bit more than halfstep or a rinsed and sampled, filtered break. Can I get an amen on that ?

Without innovation and looking back asswards there really isn't much left to explore.

I've read about vex'd wanting to do more ambient beatless stuff which will be great for the bootleggers to slam a beat over as pollywog serendipitously did with the burial tune.

For me, Burial not so much tells stories given there are no vocals but sets a backdrop against which you can superimpose your own onto. Funnily enough the stories which suit the music best tend to be morbid and depressing and thats fine as i've gone back to trawling the early/mid 90's uplifting house stuff for my mid day pick me ups.

Gek...It's not his use of filters and effects or choice of beats to sample I take issue with, but the fact that he has to throw crackle in there and tweak the effects so harshly that I find more than a bit off putting and suggests that he cant actually program a beat or was so put off by El-bs 'cold' drums as to not even bother trying.

In comparison with probably one of my all time favourite and most influential albums "Massive Attack- Blue lines" it doesn't come close and I wonder if all the superlative Burial hype would have happened if he hadn't been representing sarf london. In saying that it is still one of the best albums to have come out this year which in itself is a sad indictment of the industry in general and I am very much looking forward to his collaborations with vex'd.

I agree boomonise about replication but it's almost as if one's ideas have no legitimacy unless picked up by the big heads as an avenue worthy of exploration otherwise it's a labelled a known cul de sac, gets kicked to the kerb and stomped on or ignored.

What's worse is replicating something that really isnt worth it. Personally I don't see what the fuss is about Loefahs 'mud' that everyone would want to follow that path. Maybe thats why he's taking another route as is Mala going more house.

I can't wait to get my filthy little paws on mud cos i've got a riddim that rides and counters it perfectly. I even sent him the myspace links and funnily enough it went offline also.

Do you write for the observer? Blue Lines is a hideously overrated album, a one-way ticket to yawnsville. Give me 'drugged up young pirates' anyday of the week, thats how we got "Pulse X", "What", "I Luv U", "Anna" etc etc.

Anyway not sure I follow your point. Burial has an understanding of rhythmic science and space which most in dubstep can't approach. I've been listening to London hardcore music for years and there's nothing derivative about Burial's music - if anything all he can be accused of is being a great, original synthesiser (in the proper meaning of the phrase) of influences.

 

[the undisputed truth]

the album despite what others would say about it being irrelevent is still the measure of an artists worth. At it's best it is a shared musical journey, a look inside the artist mind that resonates emotions in you that a 12' single rarely can.

Where are the albums from which those tunes you mentioned came from ? What else have those artists done?

Blue lines is purely a subjective choice. It resonated with me at a time when the first gulf war was on and the record labels were so worried about adverse effects of their name 'massive attack' that it was released here in NZ as blue lines by Massive.

Compare it to what else was on offer at the time in the electronic realm ?... house music was getting funky and uplifting but plateauing out, hardcore was morphing into jungle, hiphop was fully gangstafied and commercialised, afrocentrism had run its course.

The only other stuff that influenced me equally as much from that era was C C music factory. Their production and visual aesthetic was and still is a benchmark for all dance music producers.

While you've been listening to london music I've been listening to all sorts of electronica from everywhere and for a while, never concentrating too much on one genre. All the time sifting through it, pulling it to bits, reconstructing it in my own mind, sorting out the chaff from the wheat, making a bit, pimping a bit, talking a lot about it.

So while Burial may be miles ahead compared to much dubstep, if you cast your eye wider and in comparison to great british acts of the past from across the electronic realm you might find it somewhat lacking. In looking backwards as he has done for his inspiration i'm sure it would even surprise him that it is worthy of the sycophantic adulation it often recieves and while you say there is nothing derivative i see it as truly a derivation of UK garage not an extension of dubstep.

Besides i'm only taking issue with his drum programming. The rest is sublime.

And for what it's worth I think massive attack are/were the most important british group ever. Who knows though, maybe in 15 years time if the current crop of producers are still doing their shit consistently and with the same sonic trademarks which will have been cloned by many then I might change my mind.

Or i might get irie later on this arvo and change my mind. That's the good thing about opinions is that you can change them yet some people think that what people write on the net is unchangeable, immutable law and written in stone.

people are funny sometimes you just gotta laugh when you feel like crying.

 

[Don Rosco]

the album despite what others would say about it being irrelevent is still the measure of an artists worth. At it's best it is a shared musical journey, a look inside the artist mind that resonates emotions in you that a 12' single rarely can.

A fairly tiny proportion of the music i've been excited by from the last 15 years has been from an album. Do you want to try and tell me it's because I haven't been listening to the right music?

Fwiw, I think Burial's drum programming is fucking awesome. There's no accounting for taste, eh?

 

[Dubquixote]

The only other stuff that influenced me equally as much from that era was C C music factory. Their production and visual aesthetic was and still is a benchmark for all dance music producers.

looking forward to the 'in defense of c+c music factory' thread

 

[the undisputed truth]

nah Don, I'll try and tell you it's because artists with true vision and talent are in short supply and you're so right about peoples tastes.

What is it with indie guitar bands ? Only decent thing I've heard lately is the raconteurs steady as she goes and the last guitar tune that did it for me before that was radiohead creep and the first linkin park song.

c'mon DQ you know it'a all about C +C...hehe

 

[gek-opel]

All the harsh filters (esp on Sth LDN boroughs the track itself) are one of the things I like MOST about Burial, those bits on the album where he leaves off that and settles into a kinda mediocre pleasant plod are the weakest bits... he's strongest when either ramping up the alienating musique concrete 2step rollage (ie- distant lights, pirates, sth LDN boroughs, crackle blues remix) or settling back into pure ambient rave (forgive). I agree Massive Attack are a classic band, definitely very unfashionable now. But Blue Lines is quite a bland album, (asides from the two great singles Safe From Harm and Unfinished Sympathy, which are a bit more hard edged and actually don't sound that out o date today...)

 

[mms]

All the harsh filters (esp on Sth LDN boroughs the track itself) are one of the things I like MOST about Burial, those bits on the album where he leaves off that and settles into a kinda mediocre pleasant plod are the weakest bits... he's strongest when either ramping up the alienating musique concrete 2step rollage (ie- distant lights, pirates, sth LDN boroughs, crackle blues remix) or settling back into pure ambient rave (forgive). I agree Massive Attack are a classic band, definitely very unfashionable now. But Blue Lines is quite a bland album, (asides from the two great singles Safe From Harm and Unfinished Sympathy, which are a bit more hard edged and actually don't sound that out o date today...)

hmm when that album came out i thought they were amazing, some of the reasons were, they were up the road from me and they had west country accents, they were rappers but not in the U.S. sense, there was no boasting and more angst, apart from stuff like 'sharper than a wilkinson razor sword'.
They had no fixed spot as they were a soundsystem. the sleeve designs were ace they seemed like me or you with better records and more nouse. it isn't an entirely bland album there are better tracks than those two, daydreaming, big wheel 10 man army are all rather good, as a record it does stand the test of time and they are responsible for some great modern pop.

 

[baboon2004]

hmm when that album came out i thought they were amazing, some of the reasons were, they were up the road from me and they had west country accents, they were rappers but not in the U.S. sense, there was no boasting and more angst, apart from stuff like 'sharper than a wilkinson razor sword'.
They had no fixed spot as they were a soundsystem. the sleeve designs were ace they seemed like me or you with better records and more nouse. it isn't an entirely bland album there are better tracks than those two, daydreaming, big wheel 10 man army are all rather good, as a record it does stand the test of time and they are responsible for some great modern pop.

Haven't really got into the Burial album yet, but this digression allows me to highlight something that struck me the other day - the seemingly total lack of profile that Tricky's work seems to have these days.

Revisiting 'Maxinquaye', it sounds almost as vital and cutting-edge as it did in 1995. Is it destined to become one of those great 'lost' albums, with little discernible direct influence on subsequent acts, a unique work in the musical landscape? (Kind of like Public Enemy, or Robert Wyatt's 'Rock Bottom'?)

 

[mistersloane]

Haven't really got into the Burial album yet, but this digression allows me to highlight something that struck me the other day - the seemingly total lack of profile that Tricky's work seems to have these days.

Revisiting 'Maxinquaye', it sounds almost as vital and cutting-edge as it did in 1995. Is it destined to become one of those great 'lost' albums, with little discernible direct influence on subsequent acts, a unique work in the musical landscape? (Kind of like Public Enemy, or Robert Wyatt's 'Rock Bottom'?)

I think that however great Tricky's first coupla things were, he's kindof like an evolutionary full=stop. No bad place to be. His lack of ability to rap, his space, I dunno, were maybe influential on a bunch of indie kids but I don't really know what people could take from his music that he himself didn't do, do you know what I mean? It's kindof great for that.

 

[mms]

I think that however great Tricky's first coupla things were, he's kindof like an evolutionary full=stop. No bad place to be. His lack of ability to rap, his space, I dunno, were maybe influential on a bunch of indie kids but I don't really know what people could take from his music that he himself didn't do, do you know what I mean? It's kindof great for that.

i think there are loads of ideas that people could take from his music - lots of sonic fictions it's possible to build out of his music, his music can't just be broken down to what he's not good at like mcing - although in his own way he's a great mc, there are loads of things there that could or can be worked up, alot of the things that are implied for instance, rather like burial in this way the whole idea that he doesn't really ever tell the whole truth but is emotionally raw and honest at the same time etc.
i don't know how it could really be seen as infuential on indie kids as the two things seem to jar both musically and as an ideology.

 

[Grievous Angel]

looking forward to the 'in defense of c+c music factory' thread

Oooh yes. That Gonna make you sweat tune is a solid gold fave of mine. The stabs are wicked.

 

[swears]

You had that whole Tricky/Massive Attack/Portishead "Bristol Sound" thing, which is great, but then it influenced loads of this cratedigger crap like DJ Shadow, Sneakerpimps*, anything on MoWax, and loads of other boring undie hip hop acts. It went from being music about emotional desolation (in style) to just about how many obsure records you could collect.

*(The Armand Van Helden rmx of Spin Spin Sugar is awesome tho.)

 

[mms]

You had that whole Tricky/Massive Attack/Portishead "Bristol Sound" thing, which is great, but then it influenced loads of this cratedigger crap like DJ Shadow, Sneakerpimps*, anything on MoWax, and loads of other boring undie hip hop acts. It went from being music about emotional desolation (in style) to just about how many obsure records you could collect.

*(The Armand Van Helden rmx of Spin Spin Sugar is awesome tho.)

maybe - i think those things were happening in parrallel at the same time though - mo wax was quite a strange label a real boutique thing, i really didn't gt it and i still don't, nor the cult of that bleedin bloke who run it. However you can't put dj shadow in the same box as the sneaker pimps though - dj shadow is absolutley immense - his new hyphy style record is one i'm really looking forward to.

 

[squibl]

you can't put dj shadow in the same box as the sneaker pimps though - dj shadow is absolutley immense - his new hyphy style record is one i'm really looking forward to.

The new record, especially the remix version, has me completely forgiving him for the past 10 years of coffee table, edge-less wank. Both his albums were waste. But his pre 96 shit was genuinely fresh, as was the music coming out of Solesides. Personally i still think there's a missed opportunity with the early/mid nineties mo wax direction, before the term "trip hop". An instrumental, abstracted, haunted take on hip hop was, briefly, a great idea.

 

[mistersloane]

i think there are loads of ideas that people could take from his music - lots of sonic fictions it's possible to build out of his music, his music can't just be broken down to what he's not good at like mcing - although in his own way he's a great mc, there are loads of things there that could or can be worked up, alot of the things that are implied for instance, rather like burial in this way the whole idea that he doesn't really ever tell the whole truth but is emotionally raw and honest at the same time etc.
i don't know how it could really be seen as infuential on indie kids as the two things seem to jar both musically and as an ideology.

I didn't explain myself properly, sorry, I personally just think that Tricky himself explored alot fo the avenues that he possibly could within his own music ( adding guitars - 'Smokin Beagles', paring it down further with more voices - 'Poems' ) and found that his own limitations exceeded the form he was working within, or his form had exhausted the possibiltites of that which he was working in.
I think he showed that you didn't need MC skill to be able to get across a mood - which was great - but I do think that particular part of his influence wasn't necessarily a good one. I'd like to see more people pick up his take on the blues, yes, and not in a Plan B way neither.

 

[Diggedy Derek]

Blue Lines is quite a bland album

I was listening to that a lot driving around France last year, and it sounded immense to me. You might think it would have been dated somewhat, lyrically, by grime, but on the contrary, it somehow seems even better.

Partly it's the fact that it's actually rather similar lyrically to grime with the way it hammers along the same rhyme- you can imagine Wiley going something like "When I was a child I played subbuteo on / my table then I graduate to studio one / Cos D?s my nom de plume you know but 3?s my pseudonym / And around my neck you know I wear the sony budokan".

Perhaps more importantly, the fact that grime is a proper, genuinely urban sound means that we no longer have to pretend that insular, intimate stuff like Massive Attack and Portishead is the UK's "version" of hip hop. And as long as you don't expect Massive Attack to be the quality of of beats and rhymes that you find on a Stretch Armstrong tape, it's still really fresh. Perhaps in a way, it was one of the first "record collector" records, as it;s just them playing their favorite breaks and rapping over them. But when I was listening again, all these lines about "can't be with the one you love, than love the one your with" and the aforementioned namechecking of Subetteo and Studio One sounded beautifully honest, unpretentious and soulful.

However, on the same holiday, another thesis I was working on, that the Shamen were better than 808 State, turned out to be utter pish.

 

[Slothrop]

And as long as you don't expect Massive Attack to be the quality of of beats and rhymes that you find on a Stretch Armstrong tape, it's still really fresh.

Quality in the sense of style or in the sense of goodness?

This looks like yet another case of people taking techniques and ideas thrown up by 'proper' urban music and then using them to achieve a completely different effect (cf drill n bass etc) and then getting judged harshly because they didn't achieve what it was their influences were trying to do. Which seems to miss the point somewhat.