Can UK Hip Hop/Grime Blow Up In The States?

[droid]

This is the problem with internet exposure to this music. When you download any old tunes off the net or listen to shows which arent really representing the actual sounds of grime music properly and are being told this is what is the best we can do, I don't blame you for not comprehending the music.

Go to some events and then decide what the music is like. Don't listen to mp3 rips or radio shows.

So essentially youre saying that if you dont go to Grime events (ie Live in London or the UK) that you cant really'comprehend' the music??

Im not claiming to have any pedigree here, but apart from one Dizzee Rascal gig - its all been vicarious for me - getting the odd 12" and CD here and there, dlng radio shows, event recordings and tunes etc... sure - I can see how getting to go to events would be a big plus - but not essential to 'comprehending the music'...

And surely between yourself, Rossi B + Luca, the Rinse FM crew, and counless other DJ's (of which I have GB's of sets lying around on my computer) somone must be 'representing grime music properly' on the radio?

And if not - then who does?

 

[Logan Sama]

Rossi B & Luca and DJ Cameo advertise themselves as "Garage" DJs. They still play 2 step and 4/4 beats. They play across the spectrum of Garage and Garage influenced beats which fit into their sets. There are several people who do 100% Grime sets on Rinse such as Roll Deep, OT crew, Mak 10, Tubby and Ruff Sqwad, but not as many as you would think

And no. unless you have been to a live genuine grime event, not some shoreditch/old street showcase, you would have no comprehension of what the music is about. Listening to tracks does not give you an understanding of a scene or the culture behind it.

 

[droid]

Rossi B & Luca and DJ Cameo advertise themselves as "Garage" DJs. They still play 2 step and 4/4 beats. They play across the spectrum of Garage and Garage influenced beats which fit into their sets. There are several people who do 100% Grime sets on Rinse such as Roll Deep, OT crew, Mak 10, Tubby and Ruff Sqwad, but not as many as you would think

Enough to take up over 10Gbs on my hard drive! Lioness was pumping them out there for a while...

And no. unless you have been to a live genuine grime event, not some shoreditch/old street showcase, you would have no comprehension of what the music is about. Listening to tracks does not give you an understanding of a scene or the culture behind it.

Jeez - no comprehesion eh? Tell me - can you achieve even semi-comprehension through listening to recordings of live events? Or does Jammer do a secret semaphore commentary at every 'real' grime gig that only the true believers can understand?


Oh BTW - Are the management at KISS aware that your show 'doesnt represent Grime properly'?

 

[Logan Sama]

Stop being a pedant.

Fucking nonsense "discussions" like this are the reason sometimes I can't be bothered posting on this forum.

 

[droid]

Stop being a pedant.

Fucking nonsense "discussions" like this are the reason sometimes I can't be bothered posting on this forum.

OK - sorry for querying your assertions. I should know by now that you dont like that.

I was just interested at how I might better comprehend this music that Ive been listening to and buying for the last 3 or 4 years - as according to you - those of us outside the UK are incapable of understanding...

 

[Logan Sama]

You weren't querying my assertions. You were using a pedantic, sartorial tone which was mocking and showed no respect.

I expect that from some of the semi-literate members of RWD, not here.

I do not believe that listening to a "Garage" show gives an accurate insight into the Grime scene. I do not believe that only listening to Grime on mp3s and through radio sets gives a fully comprehensive and insightful view of the scene. My suggestion was for the people who are stating that grime is no more than a derivative of Hip Hop to check out some live events and see Grime presented in it's intended format which in itself is something you cannot find in either Hip Hop or Dancehall.

Listening to radio will give you a decent overview of what is happening and give you an understanding of the mechanics of a Grime set, but to see it live is to add the other 4 important sensory perceptions to the audio you have been exposed to.

 

[zhao]

I'm going to see Lady Sov in Los Angeles tonight...

the show is at this mid-sized hollywood club and entrance is strictly guest-list only - others have to stand outside and hope to get in. I forgot to contact the publicist and will be bringing my name in print to work the journalist angle...

it seems like a stupid decision to do it like this. especially after the Def Jam signing. this should be at a proper concert venue with atleast 3 times the capacity...

full report later

 

[droid]

You weren't querying my assertions. You were using a pedantic, sartorial tone which was mocking and showed no respect.

Actually I was doing both. I have a tendency to take the piss when I encounter arrogant over-simplifications from people who should know better... the other responses I had in mind would do nothing for the tone of the board.

I do not believe that listening to a "Garage" show gives an accurate insight into the Grime scene. I do not believe that only listening to Grime on mp3s and through radio sets gives a fully comprehensive and insightful view of the scene. My suggestion was for the people who are stating that grime is no more than a derivative of Hip Hop to check out some live events and see Grime presented in it's intended format which in itself is something you cannot find in either Hip Hop or Dancehall.

Listening to radio will give you a decent overview of what is happening and give you an understanding of the mechanics of a Grime set, but to see it live is to add the other 4 important sensory perceptions to the audio you have been exposed to.

Thank you. Reason at last.

And I even agree with you to some extent.

 

[Logan Sama]

Let us know what she says about the sound system

 

[Logan Sama]

In the succint abbreviated replies typical of a web forum, lack of effort to extrapolate on points could be conceivably interpreted arrogance.

I am not an arrogant person at all and simply wish for the music which I love and work hard to promote to be understood by those who make passing observations based on a superficial exposure to it. I do not expect everyone to like it, but I would like everyone to see what makes it different from Hip Hop and Dancehall.

 

[bun-u]

Thing is – apart from the occasion birthday bash, the odd sidewinder, an Eskimo dance in a blue moon…there’s very little in the way of a live rave circuit you are missing out on, being outside London or the UK. The radio shows are the main currency for keeping up with the scene….though even they are under threat now.

Grime will blow when the kids who are into it have spending power. I think the gap between what a lot of kids are into and what is commercially popular - is pretty damn big at the moment (the 25-35 age bracket seems to be the main demographic targeted by the music industry these days)

 

[Logan Sama]

This is the main reason Grime is not big in the UK. Lack of live events for the people to attend. It is the same problem with record labels as with promoters... pre-packaged foreign music offers a guaranteed return for little to no effort as opposed to the hard work and far greater risk that putting on nights based around UK music incurs.

And "Grime kids" have a lot of spending power, unfortunately at present it all goes to JD Sports, the chicken shop and their local weed vendor.

There is not much value given to these kids to encourage them to spend their money. £8 for a vinyl and £14 for a cd or £10 for a mixtape. No wonder people download.

 

[gumdrops]

everyone in london should come to this -
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=2814

 

[Freakaholic]

I'm going to see Lady Sov in Los Angeles tonight...

the show is at this mid-sized hollywood club and entrance is strictly guest-list only - others have to stand outside and hope to get in.
it seems like a stupid decision to do it like this. especially after the Def Jam signing. this should be at a proper concert venue with atleast 3 times the capacity...

I couldnt get in the show at Chicago, it was at a small bar type venue. sold out.

i think the venues were booked long before she got as big as she was. at least here. i know LA is its own beast when it comes to booking and promoting, but that still sounds pretty weird. the Angelenos love their guest lists.....

 

[mms]

everyone in london should come to this -
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=2814

gonno if i can get back from kernow in time

 

[Poisonous Dart]

I feel you

If you think that sidewinder or eskimo dance or rinse sets sound like hip hop, i would love to experience this new form of hip hop you think it sounds like which has never been reported before.

This is the problem with internet exposure to this music. When you download any old tunes off the net or listen to shows which arent really representing the actual sounds of grime music properly and are being told this is what is the best we can do, I don't blame you for not comprehending the music.

Go to some events and then decide what the music is like. Don't listen to mp3 rips or radio shows.

As a whole I find artists are ignorant in this country. They don't want to be associated with a name because everyone thinks they are unique and "I just make music man".

This music is Grime. Everything about where the music comes from is accurately described by the word grime. Everything about where the music is performed is accurately described by the word grime. It is grime. Anyone who tells you different is simply deluding themselves as to their own uniqueness as a "musician".

The one reason Grime music won't be big is every artists fucks off and doesn't give any credibility to the music by acknowledging it. Again because "I am a musician, not a Grime artist"

Logan, the reason I started this thread in Dissensus was to hear and read what the thoughts of people in closest proximity to the UK Garage/Grime scene had to say about the music, culture, history and current events involving the music/scene. As a Hip Hop expert of sorts, I would never assume that because I heard between 200-250 songs/pirate radio sessions/live performances and very few proper releases that I know ANYTHING OF SUBSTANCE ABOUT GRIME...as a Hip Hop head I KNOW BETTER THAN THAT.

The things you say about the culture and the context in which this music exists and the situation/current status of this young art form are invaluable to my understanding of it. It doesn't matter if I hear a Neutrino & Oxide song if I don't know the culture and history/context of or behind it. If I listen to "Boo" featuring Ms. Dynamite because some British music critic said it was an important song it means nothing because I STILL CAN'T COMPREHEND WHY. It's the same reason a 15 year old boy now will listen to Ultramagnetic MC's "Ego Trippin'" or De La Soul's "Plug Tunin" and wonder why the hell all of these so called Hip Hop experts keep talking about them...to them it's nonsensical garbage..they'd much rather listen to 50 Cent or Juelz Santana.

I can't fully comprehend the full context of the culture without experiencing it firsthand...much the same way an audience now can't understand why movies from the 60's and 70's are held in such high esteem versus the movies of today..if you didn't grow up experiencing the 70's, then the full effect of Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, The Deer Hunter, etc is pretty much lost on you. I fully understood what you meant, Logan. One.

 

[zhao]

I can't fully comprehend the full context of the culture without experiencing it firsthand

ofcourse. no one will argue with that.

but,

when it comes to art (and music and film), one function of it is to communicate in place of the artist who made it, as a vessel. and another is to make a self contained object that stands on it's own merits, to be appreciated for it's specific qualities and on it's own terms.

good painting does not need an essay accompanying it telling the audience of the story behind it. good music does not need a documentary film to go with it. and good films do not require that you were alive when it first hit the box office.

 

[atomly]

As a whole I find artists are ignorant in this country. They don't want to be associated with a name because everyone thinks they are unique and "I just make music man".

This music is Grime. Everything about where the music comes from is accurately described by the word grime. Everything about where the music is performed is accurately described by the word grime. It is grime. Anyone who tells you different is simply deluding themselves as to their own uniqueness as a "musician".

The one reason Grime music won't be big is every artists fucks off and doesn't give any credibility to the music by acknowledging it. Again because "I am a musician, not a Grime artist"

It's sad how true this is. This isn't limited to the UK or the Grime scene at all, though. I don't know how many times I've asked people what they make and they give me the most bullshit answer ever.

It actually reminds me of a quote from when Urb did a write up on me this summer:

There's a certain type of pretentious dickhead who will waste 15 minutes of your time spewing every adjective in the English lexicon when you ask him what he plays. But what he's really trying to say is: "it's too cool for words, man, you probably wouldn't get it."

I actually get people in America asking me if "Eski" is the same as "Sublow" and how they relate to "Grime." They want to find out what's going on and they know that they're interested in grime, but unless you're really actively involved in the scene, the difference between these two basically doesn't exist. It's as bad as people trying to say that "Jungle" and "Drum and Bass" aren't the same thing.

 

[petergunn]

The beauty of Grime is that as a name it merely describes the environment it is created and performed in.

It has no real preconceptions about what it should sound like other than it is a bunch of young kids rapping on beats that dont sound like traditional hip hop.

exactly... i mean, one could argue that the early eski sound was the "grime template", around 2003, when you heard so many records by other people (ruff squad, mr wong) using that sound: the minimal cold synthe lead lines, doubled by bass, and the percussive video game clicks. But when you have producers as different as Wiley, Davinche, D'Explicit, Dizzee, Jammer, Jon E. Cash, and Terror Danjah all being called "grime", you know that there is no defined grime sound, which is great.

grime is funny, b/c it's a real meeting point btwn hip hop, garage, jungle, and dancehall. and people who come at it from one scene don't get the other perspectives, i.e. hip hop fans don't get that grime mc's come out of the garage tradition, where repeating catch phrases over and over again is part of the vocal delivery, as are tons of rewinds... and often people coming at it from jungle and garage culture (at least some i've met in nyc) are kinda confused by the amount of vocal songs in grime...

basically, i think i agree with the consesus here, which is, if grime continues to build up within the UK and becomes cemented as a strong scene, it will definitely increase it's chances of breaking in the US...

now, if we could ever have grime shows in the US with the energy and craziness of some of these fucking dvd's i've seen...

 

[joeschmo]

<i>And no. unless you have been to a live genuine grime event, not some shoreditch/old street showcase, you would have no comprehension of what the music is about.</i>

Ah, <i>that</i> old line. Same as "you can't judge this techno track unless you've heard on it a club sound system, man." Or "you haven't heard the Stones unless you've seen Keith solo on Jumpin Jack Flash."

Sure, you'll always be able to understand anything better if you're right in the middle of it, but if grime can't transmit it's essence on record or the radiowaves, it really is going nowhere, because the amount of people who go to a live show is always going to be far less than the amount of people who can hear music remotely.

Fortunately, that's a load of essentialist bollocks, so no problems there...

I really didn't want to start hip-hop vs. grime, it really is boring, but I'll just say that claiming it's not truly different from hip-hip is not a critique in my book. Nothing wrong with that. Whoever mentioned crunk et al had it right--a distinct sound within a larger tradition.