Books you've read recently and would unreservedly recommend

John Doe

Well-known member
jenks said:
I think what i mean is that McEwan and Ishiguro seem to represent a certain strand of British fiction that I find unappealing - it gestures towards the 'big' themes whilst sidling up to something cosy and middlebrow. Maybe I'm being unfair on Bradbury but I do think that when you look at that generation of writers they never came up with the great novel we were led to expect. Despite the slewing of Rushdie on Dissensus i still think Midnight's Children knocks anything either these two guys produced.


I don't think that's simply true of McEwan and Kashiguro but so many other British writers who have little or nothing to do with the Creative Writing programme at UEA (which, to be honest, has been more than a little eclipsed by other universities setting up their own creative writing programmes during the past decade). Many of the writers you refer to - Rushdie, Barnes, McEwan et al - were actually showcased by Bill Buford in the original Best British Novelists issue of Granta back in the early 80s (I think it was). That so few of them actually delivered on their promise is no surprise: they were hyped for marketing purposes and consequently suffered the consequences when their delivery couldn't match the hype. I'd agree with you too about Rushdie: I think he's a great intellect of the novel with a depth and breadth of range that leaves his contemporaries standing. Alas, he's also a great and habitual bore whose prose, I'm genuinely sorry to say, I find unreadable. It's something I regret, but I just can't embrace and enjoy Rushdie's work at all (but perhaps that's just my issue).

Quite whyBritish novelists are incapable to rivalling the work that, say, American novelists are achieving a different question. I don't know if you've any thoughts on that (or if maybe that's a whole other thread it itself)...
 

jenks

thread death
i started a thread a while back on the whole granta best writers thing here:

http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=2798&highlight=granta

you obviously like McEwan more than i do - a matter of taste - i did think the middle bit of Atonement was very good, as was the first fifity pages of a child in time but i really grew to loathe Saturday
- i have major issues with him but i'll survive, don't suppose i'll get many takers for my love of Anthony Powell, Simon Raven or Henry Green.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Quite whyBritish novelists are incapable to rivalling the work that, say, American novelists are achieving a different question"
This seems to be something that everyone accepts as true. The common explanation is that the size, emptyness and diversity of the US leads to big themes, big ideas and ultimately big novels as opposed to the small, cramped UK which leads to people focussing on the details because they can't zoom out enough to see the whole picture. This explanation always sounds too convenient to me and I'm not even sure that it's true, does Philip Roth really deal with bigger themes than Julian Barnes?
 

John Doe

Well-known member
jenks said:
i started a thread a while back on the whole granta best writers thing here:

http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=2798&highlight=granta

you obviously like McEwan more than i do - a matter of taste - i did think the middle bit of Atonement was very good, as was the first fifity pages of a child in time but i really grew to loathe Saturday
- i have major issues with him but i'll survive, don't suppose i'll get many takers for my love of Anthony Powell, Simon Raven or Henry Green.

I don't particularly rate McEwan actually. I did genuinely enjoy Atonement, but so much of his work before that I thought to be nothing short of dreadful (Amsterdam, Eternal Love etc). Saturday I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. I hated the very sound of it when I read one or two reviews (and your evident antipathy has only hardened my suspicions). It's not a book I intend to waste my time reading.

To return to a question you posed in your thread about the Granta lot you linked me to above: why are so many of these writers derided... Well I'm not sure if they are derided: there certainly seems to a very healthy support system for such figures via broadsheets books pages, radio 4 arts programmes etc. If you mean why they might be derided by many on this forum (as opposed to someone like Ballard) well I think because not only is their work is over-rated, over-praised and poor within its own terms, but that such people seem to occupy the zone claimed as 'literary' to the exclusion of all else. What frustrates me most about the British novel is what goes unrecorded: so many stories seem never to be told, so many shades of experience goes unacknowledged, unexplored, unarticulated. It's why much of what is exciting in contemporary fiction is to be found in so-called 'genre' writing (although I hate to employ this binary opposition of 'literary fiction' v genre fiction) because it's the only place that experiences familiar to many are explored (and often, as in the case of Ballard, with a thrilling and original intellectualism that is tragically absent from much of what passes as 'literary' fiction). For instance: I just re-read Gibson's Pattern Recognition last week and I found myself savouring his cool, outsider's eye-view of London; and I enjoyed too the social mileu in which his novel was set ('freelancers' working in the 'creative' industries of fashion, styling, marketing, film making, art etc). It seems to be a whole spectrum of experience that just rarely finds its way into novels published by British writers, let alone his whole analysis of globalised, mass media techno-capitalism... I mean, can you imagine Barnes or Amis or McEwan tackling such a (central and urgent) subject? The silence, as far as the British novel is concerned, is deafening...

As for your love of Powell: no won't be joining you on that one; Simon Raven, I'm slightly ashamed to admit, I have never heard of; Henry Green, though - I haven't read him yet, but intend too. I'll get back to you on that one in due course...
 

jenks

thread death
IdleRich said:
This seems to be something that everyone accepts as true. The common explanation is that the size, emptyness and diversity of the US leads to big themes, big ideas and ultimately big novels as opposed to the small, cramped UK which leads to people focussing on the details because they can't zoom out enough to see the whole picture. This explanation always sounds too convenient to me and I'm not even sure that it's true, does Philip Roth really deal with bigger themes than Julian Barnes?

I think historically Americans have yearned to create the 'great american novel' whereas the brits haven't - we've lived long enough under the shadow of shakespeare i suppose.

As to nowadays, I think that the idea that somehow we are small/insular and teh yanks are expansive is generalising too much from the particular. People like Zadie Smith is equally as ambitious as Eggars . Frantzen and Lethem are not that different from Hollinshurst - depicting a time/place through pop culture to say something larger in a socio/political way. Aren't Updike's novels as insular as McEwan's - a forensic analysis of the well to do with a little bit of sex in there?

I don't think that current US fiction is in any more a healthy state than British fiction - maybe we did have a bit of a fallow period in the sixties/ seventies (he says speculatively) but this inferiority complex is a bit much - i really don't think people choose to read a book because of the nationality of the writer

i suppose the point I am making is that I wonder how much national identity has to do with it in the first place.

And, anyway, why must we measure ourselves against US fiction?

sorry turned into a ramble (also now, at end of the post wonder if this deserves a new thread?)
 

John Doe

Well-known member
jenks said:
I think historically Americans have yearned to create the 'great american novel' whereas the brits haven't - we've lived long enough under the shadow of shakespeare i suppose.

As to nowadays, I think that the idea that somehow we are small/insular and teh yanks are expansive is generalising too much from the particular. People like Zadie Smith is equally as ambitious as Eggars . Frantzen and Lethem are not that different from Hollinshurst - depicting a time/place through pop culture to say something larger in a socio/political way. Aren't Updike's novels as insular as McEwan's - a forensic analysis of the well to do with a little bit of sex in there?

I don't think that current US fiction is in any more a healthy state than British fiction - maybe we did have a bit of a fallow period in the sixties/ seventies (he says speculatively) but this inferiority complex is a bit much - i really don't think people choose to read a book because of the nationality of the writer

i suppose the point I am making is that I wonder how much national identity has to do with it in the first place.

And, anyway, why must we measure ourselves against US fiction?

sorry turned into a ramble (also now, at end of the post wonder if this deserves a new thread?)

... maybe it does... ;)
 

jenks

thread death
John Doe said:
It seems to be a whole spectrum of experience that just rarely finds its way into novels published by British writers, let alone his whole analysis of globalised, mass media techno-capitalism... I mean, can you imagine Barnes or Amis or McEwan tackling such a (central and urgent) subject? The silence, as far as the British novel is concerned, is deafening...


As for your love of Powell: no won't be joining you on that one; Simon Raven, I'm slightly ashamed to admit, I have never heard of; Henry Green, though - I haven't read him yet, but intend too. I'll get back to you on that one in due course...
think that is a fair point - often the literary novel is a mirror held by the middle classes reflecting themselves

earlier on i posted about David Peace and i think he is an example of what is often called genre fiction - i found him in the crime section at the library. I have long argued that Ian Rankin would have ahd more recognition as a writer if he hadn't written detective fiction (think he might going off the boil now but those rebus novels from about Dead Souls until a question Of Blood are very good)
Of course the patron saint of this board, Ballard, spends his life bracketed in categories which seem to constrict his reputation
What i worry about though is that when i step away from lit fiction to try someone in one of these literary ghettoes is that there can be a gulf between the ideas - gibson seems a good example of this - and the characterisation/ writing which can be lumpy and quite frankly ungraceful at times - i suppose i'm also thinking about narrowness of presentation of women as well here.

wouldn't worry about not knowing who Raven is - if you don't fancy Powell i can't see you going for him - more posh novel cycle stuff
do try Green i think he's a real treasure - Loving is a perfect place to start
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"I don't particularly rate McEwan actually. I did genuinely enjoy Atonement, but so much of his work before that I thought to be nothing short of dreadful (Amsterdam, Eternal Love etc)."
The only one I've read was Enduring Love (I think that's what it's called) and I hated it, put me off all the rest.

"I don't think that current US fiction is in any more a healthy state than British fiction - maybe we did have a bit of a fallow period in the sixties/ seventies (he says speculatively) but this inferiority complex is a bit much - i really don't think people choose to read a book because of the nationality of the writer"
That's exactly what I was trying to say really.

"For instance: I just re-read Gibson's Pattern Recognition last week and I found myself savouring his cool, outsider's eye-view of London; and I enjoyed too the social mileu in which his novel was set ('freelancers' working in the 'creative' industries of fashion, styling, marketing, film making, art etc). It seems to be a whole spectrum of experience that just rarely finds its way into novels published by British writers, let alone his whole analysis of globalised, mass media techno-capitalism..."
Interesting book I thought. I completely agree with you about how it was set and the topics it deals with, also thought that it was an interesting idea to have the girl allergic to brands. On the other hand I kind of thought that he forgot to include a plot and it just petered out without anything happening. I do find myself thinking about it quite often though so it must have made some impression on me.
 

labrat

hot on the heels of love
as regards Ian McEwan ,his "earlier work"* is excellent-absolute jewel like pieces of macarbre writing....
he developed a sense of 70's suburban Britgoth that David Peace owes much to..


as for his more recent novels (i.e. the ones mentioned here) -i'm not a hater but they seem like the're written by a different bloke!

*first love last rites
inbetween the sheets
the cement garden
 

jenks

thread death
yeah, what happened to the guy who wrote first love/last rites?
that story about geometry - where he folds her into another dimension - how did we end up with the travails of the upper middle class?
 

rewch

Well-known member
jenks said:
...don't suppose i'll get many takers for my love of Anthony Powell, Simon Raven or Henry Green.

am with you on all 3, but for me green is far & away the best british novelist of the century... hmm... on second thoughts that is probably - after describing shakespeare as shit to a friend of mine (long since recanted) - the most sweeping literary judgement i've ever made... which is your favourite green novel? party going is superb & i have a thing about concluding... one of my favourite things about green is one of his dust-jacket author photos - shot from the back...
 

jenks

thread death
rewch said:
am with you on all 3, but for me green is far & away the best british novelist of the century... hmm... on second thoughts that is probably - after describing shakespeare as shit to a friend of mine (long since recanted) - the most sweeping literary judgement i've ever made... which is your favourite green novel? party going is superb & i have a thing about concluding... one of my favourite things about green is one of his dust-jacket author photos - shot from the back...

i think Loving, but then everyone says that. Also very fond of Caught about his time as a fire warden in London during the war. I like them all really - i love the elliptical style and he reminds me of another one of my great passions - Ford Madox Ford.

As my wife reminds me, for such an inverted snob with a particularly strong estuary accent i sure do have a great love of posh novellists - i have no answer but there must be a reason...
 

jenks

thread death
just fishing around on the net and found this quote:

In Pack My Bag Green wrote, 'Prose should be a long intimacy between strangers with no direct appeal to what both may have known. It should slowly appeal to feelings unexpressed, it should in the end draw tears out of the stone.'
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Well, I've never read Henry Green but your enthusiasm (along with a very brief internet search) has inspired me. The next book I read will be by him.
 

JimO'Brien

Active member
jenks said:
i think Loving, but then everyone says that. Also very fond of Caught about his time as a fire warden in London during the war. I like them all really - i love the elliptical style and he reminds me of another one of my great passions - Ford Madox Ford.

As my wife reminds me, for such an inverted snob with a particularly strong estuary accent i sure do have a great love of posh novellists - i have no answer but there must be a reason...

I haven't read much Ford Madox Ford, but I don't think that you can get a finer novel that The Good Soldier. This is definitely a book that I could recommend unreservedly.
 

jenks

thread death
JimO'Brien said:
I haven't read much Ford Madox Ford, but I don't think that you can get a finer novel that The Good Soldier. This is definitely a book that I could recommend unreservedly.

can i say i'm loving this thread at the moment :D

Oh yes to the good soldier and the parades end quartet - i recently read a collection of his non-fiction which i found thoroughly entertaining (reminded me of chesterton's better non-fiction)

every year i think 'this will be the year i teach the good soldier' but i always bottle out - maybe next year!!!!
 

OldRottenhat

Active member
Picking up on a bunch of disparate points:

1: Mother London is probably the best novel I've read in several years. I completely reevaluated Moorcock after this one. I had been a huge Moorcock fan back then - Elric, Hawkmoon, Corum, Dancers At the End Of Time, Oswald Bastable, the lot. Latterly, having ploughed through Burroughs and Ballard, I only rated the Jerry Cornelius stuff and it took a general infatuation with Iain Sinclair to bring me, by way of a review of King Of The City, back to Moorcock with Mother London. There's a breadth and warmth to it that is matched by nothing else I've read recently. Jonathan Coe writes characters you care about as much but he still feels light (which might be garden variety unwillingness to take him seriously because he's funny but...)

2: It was the first part of Atonement that I really liked - I thought it was brilliantly constructed, but then that might be an aspect of the writing school training that you are deriding. It's interesting that of his generation it's McEwan, the allegedly transgressive one, who's taking the slamming rather than Barnes or Amis. Maybe his reputation gave you to expect something more radical?

3: Philip Roth, Saul Bellow and John Updike blatantly have a focus every bit as narrow as their UK counterparts. The Great American Novel in part rests on the notion that the life of any individual can be emblematic of the nation as a whole, even if in practice you're writing very specifically about growing up jewish in New Jersey or adultery among New England academics. When an English writer does the same it's considered a microscopic dissection of middle class mores.

4: All I've read of David Peace was in the Granta best writers of the '00s issue so I may be generalising a bit, but he is no more a crime writer than Ballard is a science fiction writer. Both write fiction that falls outside the narrow boundaries of literary fiction, a categorisation constructed to satisfy the commercial needs of publishers and recognised largely by the size of page the book is printed on. Neither subscribes to the rules of genre - maybe the reason they get lumped in with genre fiction is that they tend to be weak on character, subordinating it to concept, much as genre fiction deploys stock characters in the service of plot?

5: English fiction is stacked against (US) American fiction because those are the primary sources of literature written in english as a first language. I sometimes read books because they are written by Irish writers - I doubt I would the same inclination if I was English to read English writers. Familiarity with English writers is assumed, familiarity with Irish writers is not (okay, this might be more convincing if I was from Australia or South Africa...I guess most people have heard of Joyce, Beckett, Yeats etc.)
 

D7_bohs

Well-known member
Love Anthony Powell - a Dance to the Music of Time is my favourite English novel (not novel in English) bar none; but, despite numerous attempts, I've never really been able to get Henry Green, though I know I should ...
With Powell, I am always reminded of a remark of Adorno's to the effect that only those who are complete insiders can hate the system that produces them properly - not that i think Powell (or Nick Jenkins, the narrator of 'a dance ..') actually hate the system, but there is a completely unsentimental, clear eyed abilty to understand the ways in which power is assembled and preserved (or dissipated) that is way more effective as a dissection of politics in 20th c england than anything more obviously committed.
 

Ned

Ruby Tuesday
I love Anthony Powell too - just about to start on the final volume of the Dance.

'All The King's Men' by Robert Penn Warren would be my suggestion for a book which is surely one of the greatest novels of the 20th century but which you never see mentioned anywhere. (I heard about it because it was in that Random House 100 greatest novels poll.) A film adaptation is coming out this year which I don't expect will be very good though.
 

jenks

thread death
Nicely surprised to find love for Powell on here.

I am currently on a re-read of Dance - have just finished the war section and feel those three books really do rival the Sword of Honour trilogy.

I remember reading somewhere that Powell was probably unique in English letters for having two careers as a novellist - his pre-war work is not bad, Waring, View etc but it's the war and the gap of quite some years before he starts writing again and this time the quality of writing/ideas is far more intense. (maybe only someone like Jean Rhys could come close to that kind of rebirth?)

I think those early novels in the sequence really capture something of school friendships and the casual manner with which they dissipate. He does passion and its passing very well. He also understands power without ever envying it - an earlier post talked of a dispassionate eye and i think in this instance this is true.

I think he is also rather good at women. And despite being a toff he does have insight into working class life (maybe something he picked up in the army?), he is also fully aware of the toff's ability to patronise the lower classes through politics. In fact, he takes great pleasure in taking the piss out of anyone who tries this.

I can see people might be put off by him- all those parties and double-barrelled names but he is a great social commentator with lovely plot twists and turns - I haven't even mentioned the monster Widmerpool yet (who probaly deserves his own post) and X Trapnel, Pamela Flitton, Erridge or a host of other characters. I love Nick's uncle who turns up to give unwonted advice at inappropriate moments.

I hope this gives a flavour of the sequence to those yet to try him and encourages you to give him a go.
 
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