Danish (anti)-Islamic Cartoons

[borderpolice]

Surely WW1 was about more than British Imperialism?

it was essentially about imperialism, not all of which was british. that's fairly obvious.

 

[matt b]

no, but statistically, the majority didn't have a particular problem with colonial exploitation. many were only too happy to exploit the benefits in a variety of ways..

why are you assuming they had any sort of say in the matter? can i blame you directly for the invasion of iraq?

the "Sanitary Conditions of the Labouring Population of" the colonies was probably not even worth studying.

not the fault of the working classes though, was it?

 

[borderpolice]

being trapped in poverty and having no say in politics is a kind of slavery in itself.

i agree with that. my point is and has been: the working classes have no t done much against racism, in the UK and elsewhere.

are you really telling me they had the choice to walk away if they didn't like it?

more than the colonised.
a rather large number become colonisers themselves, theirby exploiting britishness and whiteness. what's that if not racism? and who manned the imperialist armies?

i find the view that the british working class are all uniformly racist to be highly offensive, not to mention inaccurate.

i too. you would never find me making such a stupid statement.

 

[bassnation]

why are you assuming they had any sort of say in the matter? can i blame you directly for the invasion of iraq?

and where are these statistics, these 19th century opinion polls that confirm the working class liked and supported the empire?

 

[droid]

Regarding the US - there were huge popular and/or socialist movements in the US throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries including massive Union actions to improve labour conditions and large scale protests against the Spanish-American war, the Invasion of Haiti, and America's involvement in the WW1. Though largely irradicated by violent repression and anti-communist fanatacism by the 1950's its legacy can still be seen today in the US's welfare system and many of their employment laws - despite the many and persistent rollbacks of these gains by right leaning governments down through the years...

 

[matt b]

i agree with that. my point is and has been: the working classes have no t done much against racism, in the UK and elsewhere.

we know, but you've provided no evidence for such a view, whilst evidence suggesting you are wrong ghas been offered up.



google search rudolph rocker

 

[john eden]

i agree with that. my point is and has been: the working classes have no t done much against racism, in the UK and elsewhere.

Not done much... like what? Waving banners and sloganeering?

What is the class composition of most victims of racism?

What class are most people who marry (or have kids with) someone of another race?

What is the class composition of people who have, day to day, confronted and challenged racism? It's not liberal do-gooding middle class students/social workers/politicians, is it?

 

[borderpolice]

Aside of course from all the work by the communist party, as detailed in books like Joe Jacobs' Out of the Ghetto, which tells the story of anti-fascism and internationalism in east end working class communities.

Presumably you have either read this and discounted it, or are simply mouthing off about things you know nothing about?

I have not read this book, in fact i have never heard about it before.
but i know the history of marxism and communism quite well. as much as I appreciate the internationalism of this part of the political spectrum, it has to be said that (1) this internationalism was imposed from above, i.e. from the middle class thinkers who invented marxism. lenin for example thought the russian proletariat were chauvinistic to the core and needed reeducation. (2) the rise of fascism is inseparable from the disasterous russian revolution and in particular its degeneration into stalinism.

 

[IdleRich]

"It was essentially about imperialism, not all of which was british. that's fairly obvious."

My point is that you can hardly say Suffragettes were supporting Imperialism by stopping action during WW1.

 

[john eden]

I have not read this book, in fact i have never heard about it before.
but i know the history of marxism and communism quite well. as much as I appreciate the internationalism of this part of the political spectrum, it has to be said that (1) this internationalism was imposed from above, i.e. from the middle class thinkers who invented marxism. lenin for example thought the russian proletariat were chauvinistic to the core and needed reeducation. (2) the rise of fascism is inseparable from the disasterous russian revolution and in particular its degeneration into stalinism.

I disagree with this, and furthermore it seems to me that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the working class 100 years ago in the east end.

 

[borderpolice]

What is the class composition of people who have, day to day, confronted and challenged racism? It's not liberal do-gooding middle class students/social workers/politicians, is it?

the british empire no longer exists. it was lost on the battlefield in two world wars. it was not the british working class that caused this loss.

now that slavery and imperialsm are no longer acceptable politics in the UK, it's easy to be against it.

 

[borderpolice]

My point is that you can hardly say Suffragettes were supporting Imperialism by stopping action during WW1.

My point is that it is unavoidable to say the Suffragettes were supporting Imperialism by stopping action during WW1. compare thesuffragettes with the russian socialist position for example.

there would have been no WWI if the UK had dismanteled or promised to dismantel its empire in a coordianted way.

 

[borderpolice]

and furthermore it seems to me that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the working class 100 years ago in the east end.

you are right, i was carried away. sorry.

 

[droid]

now that slavery and imperialsm are no longer acceptable politics in the UK, it's easy to be against it.

Shit! I mustve missed that meeting!

Why didnt you mention this 3 years ago? We couldve avoided this whole Iraq thing..

 

[john eden]

the british empire no longer exists. it was lost on the battlefield in two world wars. it was not the british working class that caused this loss.

Ah - so we have the German working class to thank for it!

 

[bassnation]

the british empire no longer exists. it was lost on the battlefield in two world wars. it was not the british working class that caused this loss.

that doesn't mean that working class people didn't protest, didn't have a view or benefitted. a lot of british people are also still angry about the empire, the kind of ire that comes down through generations. our ancestors were also victims, remember.

now that slavery and imperialsm are no longer acceptable politics in the UK, it's easy to be against it.

and conversly, its easy for you to judge those people without understanding anything about the realities of their lives.

 

[borderpolice]

Ah - so we have the German working class to thank for it!

yes. unfortunately, they didnt replace it with something better (at least in the second war). which confirms my point: working class and racism are easy bedfellows.

if you are down you are only too likely to kick somebody else.

 

[borderpolice]

and conversly, its easy for you to judge those people without understanding anything about the realities of their lives.

having lived in some of the poorest third workd countries, i believe to have
a sound grasp in the reproduction of oppression.

 

[john eden]

yes. unfortunately, they didnt replace it with something better (at least in the second war). which confirms my point: working class and racism are easy bedfellows.

if you are down you are only too likely to kick somebody else.

I think we might be getting somewhere we can agree.

Nobody is denying that working class people have been racist in the past (and are now), but I think this ignores the role of those higher up the social spectrum who were all too happy to divert anger away from themselves. The role of middle and upper class fascists like Moseley and Griffin is exactly this - and they are merely are the most visible and least subtle.

Given the diet of bullshit people are fed, what is remarkable is the persistence of tolerance and anti-racism in working class communities throughout history.

 

[bassnation]

having lived in some of the poorest third workd countries, i believe to have
a sound grasp in the reproduction of oppression.

accepted, but you are still judging people who lived a hundred years ago in a very different world whos views and history you admit you haven't studied.