Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Cover-ups - in the loose sense of 'intelligences agencies not giving the press/public the full picture of what's going on' - obviously happen all the time. An intelligence agency that had no secrets would not be much be good, after all. You'd have to be naive in the extreme to expect that the various agencies of the US government would ever make public everything they know, or think they know, about the 9/11 attacks, for example.

Where people make a big error is to leap from this, to assuming the very worst possible case, i.e. because they're not being told the complete truth, they are therefore being told no truth at all: hence, 9/11 was an inside job, Osama bin Laden was an actor all along, the Apollo missions were faked, JFK was murdered by Freemasons because he was Catholic, etc. etc. etc.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
I must admit, as soon as I started reading about the JFK thing I started wondering about Oswald again immediately. Him being a shit marksman in the army, but pulling off these incredibly accurate shots.

I read somewhere that the magic bullet thing has been debunked cos of the unique structure of the presidential vehicle.
 

Leo

Well-known member
jfk and 9/11 are the big ones, but a general sense of cynicism can be its own form of subtle conspiracy theories: "all politicians are corrupt", "the system is rigged", "you can't fight city hall", "the cards are stacked against us", all these types of core beliefs that make a lot of people throw up their hands and give up hope of living in a fair and just society. while there are certainly examples when those beliefs have been true, they aren't universal truths.

or are they?...
 

droid

Well-known member
We've covered this ground. The problem is not the theory per se, it is the mindset that places conspiracy at the centre of everything.

"all politicians are corrupt", "the system is rigged", "you can't fight city hall", "the cards are stacked against us"

These are not conspiracy theories.
 

droid

Well-known member
No, I don't think it is. Superficially similar but quite different.

The belief that political, economic and other systems are constructed in such a way as to benefit elites is a rational response to history - the belief that this is accomplished solely or primarily through conspiracies is conspiracy theory.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
I think the idea that ALL politicians are corrupt is closer to conspiracy theory, in that it simplifies things (albeit based upon considerable evidence of corruption among politicos) and renders an entire section of society 'evil' at a stroke.

It's a big jump to go from 'all politicians are corrupt' to 'all politicians are satanic/lizards', and perhaps you need a mental illness to make that leap (or, at least, to make that leap first).

But presumably similar sentiments fuelled the rise of Nazism in Germany. Actually, this provides a good example of an 'early' conspiracy theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth

(Of course, it's arguable that all politicians ARE corrupt, even if unconsciously, because the entire political system they serve is corrupt. But if that's the standard for corruption, who isn't corrupt? At the very least we're corrupted by our self-interest.)

Please droid - go easy on me. :eek:
 

droid

Well-known member
Well, Im not making that claim, but regardless - tell me.

"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Is that maxim a conspiracy theory? Is conspiracy implied there?
 

firefinga

Well-known member
Have any of you ever had an acquaintance or friend transformed into wide eyed conspiracy freak? Ive seen it happen a couple of times and in my experience its usually the symptom of an underlying psychological issue.

Yes, some guy I knew from work snapped one day. He used to be a normal kinda guy. Then after one year or so he started pointing us to odd youtube vids of apparent nutjob documentaries. At first, I thought he was joking, but it got creepy very fast. IT was like a text book case. If you told him this or that is obvious rubbish and highly illogical he would simply answer oneself is already deceived by the '"shadow government", or is part of the conspiracy already.

He quit the job soon after and I lost contact with him.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Sorry if we covered this earlier in the thread, but how far back do conspiracy theories go, do you reckon? I mean, what's the first documented instance? Consider:

The witch-hunt of the 16th and 17th centuries was an organized effort by authorities in many countries to destroy a supposed conspiracy of witches thought to pose a deadly threat to Christendom. According to these authorities, witches were numerous, and in conscious alliance with Satan, forming a sort of Satanic counter-religion. [.....] The belief that witches are not just individual villains but conspirators organized in a powerful but well-hidden cult is a distinguishing feature of the early modern witch-hunt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-cult_hypothesis#Early_modern_precedents

But myths of an anti-Christian Jewish conspiracy predate even that, surely?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
An example of a good conspiracy theory. No idea if there's any truth in it but why not?

That's the thing. Spontaneous time-slips and flat earths are of interest only to people who are either students of mental illness, or mentally ill themselves. The really interesting conspiracy theories are the ones that are hideously plausible.
 

sufi

lala
I was unsure about whether to post this up as it's deep.... not sure if you all would want to be implicated in the conspiracy of conspiracists...

My theory is that as soon as the lizards smell someone getting close to their lair, to exposing their eggs or their plans, they strike with a massive hallucinogenic attack, as follows:

Struck down, and properly smited:
  • Icke
  • Shayler
  • Gazza (?)

Not yet lost it but on or maybe a little over the edge
  • Craig Murray
  • Assange

Next on teh list:
  • Tony Gosling
  • Satoshi bitcoin
  • Snowy snowden &
  • Chelsea Manning
  • Adam Curtis ?

there are a few more that i don't remember right now, probably including a few on this very forum ;)
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
Most Freemasons are waaaay too inept to be good at organized crime, at least in the states. There was a blatant period at the turn of the 20th century where Masonry was so sublimely popular in pop culture, it was expected to be what you did, like putting your son in the boy scouts (admittedly an organization formed by people who comprehended Masonry to some level the same way the Klan was founded by Masons, which is a fucking point of some obvious frustration to those guys but never brought up as much as supposed connections to occult organizations or the knights templar in the states. Says a lot about religious paranoia in the US). The whole thing got diluted so heavily, you go to most Masonic halls, or Demolay chapters for the kids, and to be honest it reeks of 'hobby night' and 'camping trips'. The connection to esoterica or real connective social consciousness is fucked, to be perfectly honest. You'd have a better chance of moving up in society by having a cousin on the police force (though admittedly most Masons these days tend to be cops; fraternity, paragonness, hand in hand shit right there).

Also gotta remember as a result of that, it was so EASY to set up bootleg versions of Freemasonry; Mason's claiming Propaganda 2 wasn't a real lodge, and in fact... Why would the Freemasons, often denounced by popes and seen fit to be denied funerals and services by their clergy, help the Vatican in any way? Or the Mafia, who have descent from the Knights Hospitaler who were the very order who exterminated the Templars for the Vatican way back when in the Jacques Demolay-era? But back to that diluted period of the states, it was so easy to simply set up a "Masonic Lodge" that was clandestine and any sort of business could be practiced; this was a particular issue for minorities in America because Prince Hall, the African-American Masonic organization would often find itself discounted as members of Freemasonry for years due to their reluctance to integrate, despite being more active and supportive in their community than your typical Masonic lodges of the time (and arguably needing to be so with a lot much more priority). Yet on the flipside, Asian-American Masonic lodges in California would often be formed as meeting places for the Tongs and the Triads hoping to put down control in their local ghettos.

(Interestingly, Mafiosi never used Masonic Lodges in America; they simply operated out of private spaces with recreational service, or under much more formally religious-associated organizations such as the Knights of Columbus. Almost a echo of their former identity as the 'hit-men' of the papacy)

So to make a cheap parallel to illustrate a point, the FBI/CIA knew that to discredit organizations like the Panthers, making counterfeit replicas of their practice like the SLA that tainted the idea of revolution against the system with portraiture of ineptitude, erotic romance; such a figure got turned into the character of a pulp novel you buy in supermarkets and dehumanize into a novelty to jerk off to real quick. Even Scientology, itself a questionable organization, would get distilled into the Processeans and they themselves somehow find a ton of their work 'magically' popping up in the thought process of Manson. If you sell yourself to the public in any way, you invariably run the risk of distortion by those who simply reorganize what you say to serve their own individual needs.

Likewise, Masonry itself was bound to fall victim to dilution over generations, undermining from outside forces as well as the considerable fragmentation that comes from trying to unite disparate social elements under the guise of brotherhood. You can basically connect LaVeyan Satanism, various ethnic mobs, children's hospitals, and volunteer xenophobic militias in America all to Freemasonry. And the tricky thing is, whether or not you believe Freemasonry is able to, as a collective consciously generate these concepts and put them into the world, or if you think people can go into it, grab what they can, and remake Freemasonry into their own image.

But granted, my perspective is a stateside one, and I imagine that the European relationship to Masonry, given its much more historic legacy, is a lot more difficult.
 

luka

Well-known member
i was referring to operation tiberius specifically, although glad to have sparked that response in any case.
 
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