Ayn Rand and a Discussion of Objectivism
- Thread starter emilywaves
- Start date
I hate to regurgitate what I've posted elsewhere, but I think it holds true:
Ayn Rand's "objectivism" is great as a personal philosophy if you see yourself as hard-working, skilled, independent, and intelligent. It's not so hot as a social or political philosophy. As tempting as it sometimes sounds, I've never been able to leave my friends for new associates that share some crazed level of intellectualism and instinctive drive, which is probably fortunate. Rand's absolute meritocracy would be great given a completely level playing field but then she'd lose the plot device of dramatically shunning or turning your back on the establishment and its corrupt ways.
It's also a bad choice to classify her as a philosopher - more like "philosopher." I mean, you can claim that anyone who comes up with ideas about the material world and personal interactions is a philosopher, but western philosophy was already reasonably stratified by the 20th century. To most people actually studying philosophy, Rand is pretty much treading over territory that's already been well-covered and refuted. It'd be like calling someone a "mathematician" after they refused to study established work then came up with pi being about 3.2 after thinking about it.
Rand had a few token philosophers that she gave lip service to, although it was nearly always a love/hate sort of thing. Nietzsche being the token one, although her supposed hated of Kant doesn't mesh well with her poor misreading (and ripping off) of his categorical imperative. Overall, she was a cut-rate philosopher, mediocre writer, and unabashedly a romantic which kills any pretense at objectivity. The fact that some of the big ideas that were romanticized have some basis in artistic standards or purity of motivation are fairly marginal when looking at the big picture.
Ayn Rand's "objectivism" is great as a personal philosophy if you see yourself as hard-working, skilled, independent, and intelligent. It's not so hot as a social or political philosophy. As tempting as it sometimes sounds, I've never been able to leave my friends for new associates that share some crazed level of intellectualism and instinctive drive, which is probably fortunate. Rand's absolute meritocracy would be great given a completely level playing field but then she'd lose the plot device of dramatically shunning or turning your back on the establishment and its corrupt ways.
It's also a bad choice to classify her as a philosopher - more like "philosopher." I mean, you can claim that anyone who comes up with ideas about the material world and personal interactions is a philosopher, but western philosophy was already reasonably stratified by the 20th century. To most people actually studying philosophy, Rand is pretty much treading over territory that's already been well-covered and refuted. It'd be like calling someone a "mathematician" after they refused to study established work then came up with pi being about 3.2 after thinking about it.
Rand had a few token philosophers that she gave lip service to, although it was nearly always a love/hate sort of thing. Nietzsche being the token one, although her supposed hated of Kant doesn't mesh well with her poor misreading (and ripping off) of his categorical imperative. Overall, she was a cut-rate philosopher, mediocre writer, and unabashedly a romantic which kills any pretense at objectivity. The fact that some of the big ideas that were romanticized have some basis in artistic standards or purity of motivation are fairly marginal when looking at the big picture.
satanmcnugget
Well-known member
Ayn Rand was such a humungous influence on my life that im almost tempted to defend her (WHUT?????? but youre a communist, Rob!!!!!!)....ive ceratinly done my share of that against so-called objectivist-libertarians who arent the least bit libertarian
all i can say after all these years is that i now agree with what Confucius says
still libertarian after all these years, but with a better understanding of what side of capitalism i wake up on every morning
i guess im an anarchist
all i can say after all these years is that i now agree with what Confucius says
still libertarian after all these years, but with a better understanding of what side of capitalism i wake up on every morning
i guess im an anarchist
Undocumented Immigrants as "Prime Movers"
12 million undocumented Americans rejecting the neo-cons' terms of their existence ["either you're a criminal-on-the-run or we deport you"], by removing their services ... with up to 12 million of these American workers now politicised and increasingly organised, how will the US Establishment now react?
[1] Proceed with the legislation? [causing economic recession in the affected industries along with increased immigrant militancy and rioting].
[2] Status quo? [increasing the economic power and unionisation of such immigrants, as they would have no direct competition from new immigrants].
[3] Grant citizenship to undocumented immigrants while also [re-]encouraging more immigration? [so undermining immigrants' economic power vis-a-vis employer blackmail: "You're SACKED! I can always hire another, cheaper, new immigrant].
May Day! May Day!
Immigrants rally across US
Protesters march for immigrants rights through Chicago's loop, May 1, 2006. Police estimate that there were over 300,000 participants. A one-day nation-wide strike and business boycott gathered steam on Monday to demand legal rights for millions of illegal immigrants, with many U.S. businesses shutting down voluntarily to avoid disruption.
Second-handers need not apply ...
========================================================
Still reeling from the pyrotechnics of V for Vendetta?
Ho ho ho [aren't that lot still looking for enigmatic members of the Weather Underground?]
We've got all those guys on our watchlist ...
12 million undocumented Americans rejecting the neo-cons' terms of their existence ["either you're a criminal-on-the-run or we deport you"], by removing their services ... with up to 12 million of these American workers now politicised and increasingly organised, how will the US Establishment now react?
[1] Proceed with the legislation? [causing economic recession in the affected industries along with increased immigrant militancy and rioting].
[2] Status quo? [increasing the economic power and unionisation of such immigrants, as they would have no direct competition from new immigrants].
[3] Grant citizenship to undocumented immigrants while also [re-]encouraging more immigration? [so undermining immigrants' economic power vis-a-vis employer blackmail: "You're SACKED! I can always hire another, cheaper, new immigrant].
May Day! May Day!
Immigrants rally across US
Protesters march for immigrants rights through Chicago's loop, May 1, 2006. Police estimate that there were over 300,000 participants. A one-day nation-wide strike and business boycott gathered steam on Monday to demand legal rights for millions of illegal immigrants, with many U.S. businesses shutting down voluntarily to avoid disruption.
CHICAGO (Reuters) - From the streets of New York to the lettuce fields of California, hundreds of thousands of immigrants stayed away from jobs and boycotted stores on Monday, showing their economic clout in a bid to legitimize millions of workers in the United States illegally.
In what organizers called "A Day Without Immigrants," rallies across the country closed hundreds of restaurants, shops and factories. Construction projects were disrupted, day labor jobs went begging, children stayed home from school and waves of humanity poured through city streets.
"If these people are good enough to pay taxes, they're good enough to be citizens," said Chris Delgado, a tax preparer from Skokie, Illinois, who came to a Chicago rally.
Los Angeles braced for two rallies where more than a million were expected. In Chicago, more than 300,000 people marched for miles, waving flags and pushing baby strollers, while mass demonstrations were held in Denver, Houston, San Francisco and many other cities.
The common bond was a bid to pressure the U.S. Congress into granting rights for up to 12 million illegal immigrants and scuttle a proposal that would criminalize them and anyone who tries to help them.
Thousands also marched in Mexico in solidarity with their compatriots who make up the bulk of the undocumented immigrants in the United States.
It was not clear what the economic impact of the boycott would be, but the loss may not be as big as the realization that illegal immigrants make up an important part of the economy, said James Glassman, senior economist at JP Morgan.
The action is huge symbolically, added Bill Cheney, chief economist at John Hancock Financial Service, but "unlikely to have a measurable impact" for business in the month or the current quarter.
Demonstrators wore white today at a rally in Somerville. (Michele McDonald / Globe Staff Photo)
FLOOD ACROSS THE BORDER
Illegal immigrants, who flood across the Mexican border at a rate of half a million a year, work mostly at low-paid jobs in agriculture, construction, restaurants, as janitors, meat packers, maids and gardeners and many other occupations.
Chipotle Mexican Grill Inc. said 29 of its more than 500 eateries were closed Monday because employees didn't show up but it was largely "business as usual" across the chain.
At the headquarters of American Apparel in Los Angeles, the largest garment factory in the United States, sewing machines fell silent when managers shut down to allow all 3,000 workers a chance to join the protests.
"The government has to realize how important Latinos are to this economy and give us full rights," said American Apparel customer service representative Ruben Eustaquio.
In Florida, about of half the state's farm workers stayed away from the fields, according to the Florida Fruit and Vegetable Association and many workers abandoned construction sites, according to contracting officials.
In New York City, demonstrators formed "human chains" at several points around the city. Hundreds, including school children, lined the streets in Queens waving U.S. and Latin American flags and banners saying, "We are Americans" and "Full Rights for All Immigrants."
The Catholic Church has come down strongly on the side of the immigrants in the debate, and priests at the parish level helped organize many of the protests. Cardinal Roger Mahony in Los Angeles has suggested he would order his priests to disregard any law against assisting undocumented immigrants.
The demonstrations drew citizens as well as those who want to become citizens.
"They're going to degrade my citizenship for helping somebody out, or just riding in a car with them?" said Wences Martinez, 30, born in Chicago of illegal immigrants. "It's like the British before the Revolutionary War."
Kuwaiti immigrant Hatem Zahdan, 40, joined a group of Muslims at the Chicago rally. "I came to this country because its freer than where I came from ... and we need to keep it that way," Zahdan said.
In California's Salinas Valley, known as America's Salad Bowl, fields were empty and rows of produce unattended as workers heeded calls to stay home.
In what organizers called "A Day Without Immigrants," rallies across the country closed hundreds of restaurants, shops and factories. Construction projects were disrupted, day labor jobs went begging, children stayed home from school and waves of humanity poured through city streets.
"If these people are good enough to pay taxes, they're good enough to be citizens," said Chris Delgado, a tax preparer from Skokie, Illinois, who came to a Chicago rally.
Los Angeles braced for two rallies where more than a million were expected. In Chicago, more than 300,000 people marched for miles, waving flags and pushing baby strollers, while mass demonstrations were held in Denver, Houston, San Francisco and many other cities.
The common bond was a bid to pressure the U.S. Congress into granting rights for up to 12 million illegal immigrants and scuttle a proposal that would criminalize them and anyone who tries to help them.
Thousands also marched in Mexico in solidarity with their compatriots who make up the bulk of the undocumented immigrants in the United States.
It was not clear what the economic impact of the boycott would be, but the loss may not be as big as the realization that illegal immigrants make up an important part of the economy, said James Glassman, senior economist at JP Morgan.
The action is huge symbolically, added Bill Cheney, chief economist at John Hancock Financial Service, but "unlikely to have a measurable impact" for business in the month or the current quarter.
Demonstrators wore white today at a rally in Somerville. (Michele McDonald / Globe Staff Photo)
FLOOD ACROSS THE BORDER
Illegal immigrants, who flood across the Mexican border at a rate of half a million a year, work mostly at low-paid jobs in agriculture, construction, restaurants, as janitors, meat packers, maids and gardeners and many other occupations.
Chipotle Mexican Grill Inc. said 29 of its more than 500 eateries were closed Monday because employees didn't show up but it was largely "business as usual" across the chain.
At the headquarters of American Apparel in Los Angeles, the largest garment factory in the United States, sewing machines fell silent when managers shut down to allow all 3,000 workers a chance to join the protests.
"The government has to realize how important Latinos are to this economy and give us full rights," said American Apparel customer service representative Ruben Eustaquio.
In Florida, about of half the state's farm workers stayed away from the fields, according to the Florida Fruit and Vegetable Association and many workers abandoned construction sites, according to contracting officials.
In New York City, demonstrators formed "human chains" at several points around the city. Hundreds, including school children, lined the streets in Queens waving U.S. and Latin American flags and banners saying, "We are Americans" and "Full Rights for All Immigrants."
The Catholic Church has come down strongly on the side of the immigrants in the debate, and priests at the parish level helped organize many of the protests. Cardinal Roger Mahony in Los Angeles has suggested he would order his priests to disregard any law against assisting undocumented immigrants.
The demonstrations drew citizens as well as those who want to become citizens.
"They're going to degrade my citizenship for helping somebody out, or just riding in a car with them?" said Wences Martinez, 30, born in Chicago of illegal immigrants. "It's like the British before the Revolutionary War."
Kuwaiti immigrant Hatem Zahdan, 40, joined a group of Muslims at the Chicago rally. "I came to this country because its freer than where I came from ... and we need to keep it that way," Zahdan said.
In California's Salinas Valley, known as America's Salad Bowl, fields were empty and rows of produce unattended as workers heeded calls to stay home.
Second-handers need not apply ...
========================================================
Confucious said:
Still reeling from the pyrotechnics of V for Vendetta?
Sherief said:
Ho ho ho [aren't that lot still looking for enigmatic members of the Weather Underground?]
We've got all those guys on our watchlist ...
hundredmillionlifetimes
Banned
In ever worse news, that mad, reactionary cult known as 'Ayn Rand' has now moved centre-stage in US mainstream society, Hollywood too now jumping on the bandwagon, with the vacuous Angelina Jolie playing the title role (at least Helen Mirren, when she tragically played the Rand looney in 'The Passion of Ayn Rand' some years ago, pretended to act out a complex portrayal, while Vidor's 1940s The Fountainhead took a critical stance).
It is perhaps yet another measure of just how far America has 'naturally' moved to the fascist far right, and that it takes an otherwise conservative writer like Andrew Ferguson, in his review of Rand acolyte Alan Greenspan's recently published memoirs, to recognise that "her creepy philosophy of Objectivism, placing the self at the centre of the moral universe, still is embraced by tens of thousands of pimply teenage boys in the dreamy moments between fits of social insecurity and furious bouts of masturbation."
Interesting of Forbes to wax lyrical about Rand, for it is now owned by none other than Yer Old Pal Bono, whose own ideology, that capitalist private ambition is magically identical with public benefit, coincides with that of Rand, and whose private equity company Elevation Partners recently forked out $300m for a 40 per cent stake in the Forbes business empire.
It is perhaps yet another measure of just how far America has 'naturally' moved to the fascist far right, and that it takes an otherwise conservative writer like Andrew Ferguson, in his review of Rand acolyte Alan Greenspan's recently published memoirs, to recognise that "her creepy philosophy of Objectivism, placing the self at the centre of the moral universe, still is embraced by tens of thousands of pimply teenage boys in the dreamy moments between fits of social insecurity and furious bouts of masturbation."
Guru of greed: The cult of selfishness
Fifty years after it was first published, Ayn Rand's most influential book offers a vital clue to why so many Americans vote against their economic and social interests.
By Leonard Doyle
10/12/07 "The Independent"
[Extract]
Rand's most influential book, Atlas Shrugged begins in a recession. To save the economy her hero, John Galt, calls for a strike by intellectuals against government interference. Factories, farms and shops close. Riots break out as food becomes scarce. Rand herself said she "set out to show how desperately the world needs prime movers and how viciously it treats them" and to portray "what happens to a world without them".
The book was published into a welter of criticism. The New York Times critic denounced it as "written out of hate" and called it "a triumph of English as a second language". Both conservatives and liberal critics disparaged it, with the right condemning its promotion of a godless ethic and the left condemning its message of "greed is good". Rand cried every day as bad reviews poured in.
But now she is back in fashion of a sort. Her theories have made inroads into academia. Objectivism is taught at more than 30 universities, with fellowships at several leading philosophy departments. The Ayn Rand Institute has a war chest of over $7m to promote her ideas and more than a million high school pupils are being given free copies of her novels to read.
Now a movie, starring Angelina Jolie in the lead role, is being released next year.
As Forbes magazine - aka The Capitalist's Tool - breathlessly reported: "Sales on Amazon in the first nine months of this year are already almost double the total for 2006." With the 50th anniversary of its publication today, Atlas Shrugged was ranked 124th on Amazon's sales charts while The Da Vinci Code languished at 2,587.
The book made Rand the toast of every Rotary Club in the land.
Legions of readers, including Hillary Clinton, members of the Supreme Legions of readers, including Hillary Clinton, members of the Supreme Court and of course Mr Greenspan count Rand among their formative influences. And the 140,000 copies of Atlas Shrugged, which are sold every year, are a small fraction of the 6 million books sold since the book was first published.
Rand's credo is summed up by the title of a collection of her essays, The Virtue of Selfishness, which have circulated in an almost samizdat fashion among enthusiasts of capitalism red in tooth and claw.
Full article here.
Fifty years after it was first published, Ayn Rand's most influential book offers a vital clue to why so many Americans vote against their economic and social interests.
By Leonard Doyle
10/12/07 "The Independent"
[Extract]
Rand's most influential book, Atlas Shrugged begins in a recession. To save the economy her hero, John Galt, calls for a strike by intellectuals against government interference. Factories, farms and shops close. Riots break out as food becomes scarce. Rand herself said she "set out to show how desperately the world needs prime movers and how viciously it treats them" and to portray "what happens to a world without them".
The book was published into a welter of criticism. The New York Times critic denounced it as "written out of hate" and called it "a triumph of English as a second language". Both conservatives and liberal critics disparaged it, with the right condemning its promotion of a godless ethic and the left condemning its message of "greed is good". Rand cried every day as bad reviews poured in.
But now she is back in fashion of a sort. Her theories have made inroads into academia. Objectivism is taught at more than 30 universities, with fellowships at several leading philosophy departments. The Ayn Rand Institute has a war chest of over $7m to promote her ideas and more than a million high school pupils are being given free copies of her novels to read.
Now a movie, starring Angelina Jolie in the lead role, is being released next year.
As Forbes magazine - aka The Capitalist's Tool - breathlessly reported: "Sales on Amazon in the first nine months of this year are already almost double the total for 2006." With the 50th anniversary of its publication today, Atlas Shrugged was ranked 124th on Amazon's sales charts while The Da Vinci Code languished at 2,587.
The book made Rand the toast of every Rotary Club in the land.
Legions of readers, including Hillary Clinton, members of the Supreme Legions of readers, including Hillary Clinton, members of the Supreme Court and of course Mr Greenspan count Rand among their formative influences. And the 140,000 copies of Atlas Shrugged, which are sold every year, are a small fraction of the 6 million books sold since the book was first published.
Rand's credo is summed up by the title of a collection of her essays, The Virtue of Selfishness, which have circulated in an almost samizdat fashion among enthusiasts of capitalism red in tooth and claw.
Full article here.
Interesting of Forbes to wax lyrical about Rand, for it is now owned by none other than Yer Old Pal Bono, whose own ideology, that capitalist private ambition is magically identical with public benefit, coincides with that of Rand, and whose private equity company Elevation Partners recently forked out $300m for a 40 per cent stake in the Forbes business empire.
N
nomadologist
Guest
roffle
N
nomadologist
Guest
My biggest problem with Rand is not even really her thing about empowered individualism (I'm American, I live in a country that runs on the idea on an ideological level), which does seem to make more sense if you read her work in the cultural context of its time--it's her flagrant misapprehension of what "the Ego" is in a first-hand psychoanalytical sense. I really blame her for the pop-psychological term "ego" that Americans use to mean "self-image" or "self-worth" that has nothing to do with Freud's original notion of the "Ego" as reality principle.
(fwiw, "ego" just means "I" in Greek...)
(fwiw, "ego" just means "I" in Greek...)
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Latin, I think, but never mind.
One thing I think's interesting is the at least superficial similarity between the psychological state commonly called 'ego death' that can be brought about using high doses of psychedelics and the concept in Buddhism of anatman or 'non-self'; the abnegation of the self in a way that is liberating rather than nihilistic.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
You sure about that? http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/704
(though it also seems to mean 'goat' as well
)
N
nomadologist
Guest
I studied Attic Greek for three years. Epsilon gamma omega IS THE GREEK WORD FOR "I"
N
nomadologist
Guest
"e" "g" "o" is a TRANSLITERATION of the ORIGINAL GREEK FOR "I"
this has been a public service announcement
this has been a public service announcement
N
nomadologist
Guest
And like you've said before--the Romans/Latins just stole everything from the Greeks anyway...