My Bloody Valentine thread

[Benny Bunter]

I'm so deep inside this motherfucker that don't think I have any perspective left. But I think that the only two tracks that haven't improved with repeated listens are "she found now" (generic shoegaze) and "is this and yes" (pastiche of Four Organs by Steve Reich).

I love 'she found now', it's like 'sometimes' only better imo.

 

[IdleRich]

"it is impossible to love that tune and be ambivalent about MBV."

And yet it happens.

 

[blacktulip]

blacktulip, if memory serves, we've exchanged about Spectralism, Avant Classical and Free Jazz before, right?

I think we have!

I love the VU, and consider them epochal. I also really like Faust IV, and love a lot of krautrock.

I spent a while trying to like MBV based on their seismic reputation. Doing so was kind of a big thing for me for a while about 13 years ago. In the end, my honest reaction is simply that I don't like them.

When forced (or forcing myself) to listen to them, I can't wait for it to stop. I don't consider them (or Kevin Shields) to be pioneers in any meaningful sense. I don't give them any credit for doing anything new, nor would I find it particularly interesting if someone were to prove they had. I don't like the sound they make. I don't enjoy their melodies. I don't enjoy their textures.

I have enjoyed a fair amount of rather noisy music, melodic and otherwise, over the years: just not MBV.

I'm not trying to turn anyone off their favourite band. I just don't like your favourite band.

 

[CrowleyHead]

We're trying to seriously define them as free jazz or spectral music, and not just a self-indulgent mediocre rock guitarist backed by a rhythmically boring standard indie band?

I mean, maybe it's just perspective and reactionary stuff on my part, but I haven't heard Jason from Spacemen 3/Spiritualized dick-sucked a TENTH as much as we've collectively done on this album for his last big comeback album, and that guy's got at LEAST equal play for this sort of hyper-analysis.

Not even to play the "MBV IS OVERHYPED COMPARED TO SPACEMEN 3/DINOSAUR JR/AR KANE" or whatever's the cooler name to drop... But rather, aside from the song "When You Sleep", what's helped them earn their superiority status? I ask as someone who likes some of their songs, but actively rejects their aura as much as possible.

 

[Benny Bunter]

We're trying to seriously define them as free jazz or spectral music, and not just a self-indulgent mediocre rock guitarist backed by a rhythmically boring standard indie band?

I mean, maybe it's just perspective and reactionary stuff on my part, but I haven't heard Jason from Spacemen 3/Spiritualized dick-sucked a TENTH as much as we've collectively done on this album for his last big comeback album, and that guy's got at LEAST equal play for this sort of hyper-analysis.

Not even to play the "MBV IS OVERHYPED COMPARED TO SPACEMEN 3/DINOSAUR JR/AR KANE" or whatever's the cooler name to drop... But rather, aside from the song "When You Sleep", what's helped them earn their superiority status? I ask as someone who likes some of their songs, but actively rejects their aura as much as possible.

Well Jason from Spacemen 3 has released loads of stuff in the time since loveless came out, 6 or 7 albums or something so he's never really been away has he? Same with J Mascis/Dinosaur Jr. Both have released steadily more conventional albums over the last two decades. MBVs first record for 22 years was always gonna be a big deal.

Which songs do you like by them? Have you heard Loveless even? If so then I don't really know what to say to you, they're just not for you.

 

[CrowleyHead]

I copped Loveless on CD back maybe... in '07? I got the immediate realization of it's influence, though much to the chagrin of this forum, by realizing Smashing Pumpkins was just that record with 'rock drums' and the beloved riffs of us moronic Americans WITHIN that guitar noise. But I also thought that aside from maybe two or three songs, the album sounded hideously dated and/or like shit.

Later I heard the "Realise" EP and was astonished, because my main problem with the band is that while so much goes into Kevin and (on a much lesser note) Belinda, Debbie and Colm are fucking TERRIBLE on Loveless. It's possibly the most inept rhythm section EVER, and discovering that the poor guy was basically in the throes of a nervous breakdown while recording his parts explains a lot. But on "Realise" that is a BAND and they are really good! Not my favorite sort of things to do with guitar (which is probably SY on "Bad Moon Rising"), but still very good.

So since then it's been like, fluttering around and thinking "Well, this is okay" to "Oh my god, what do people think when they enjoy this?" Then again I have a strong hatred of the "shoegaze begates post-rock school of shimmery guitar crescendo handjob soundtracks" school of music, so I can't ever really give these guys a fair one.

@Benny B; I suppose, but again, I don't see how "Loveless" is better than a lot of the records I'd consider it's peers by either the influences both upon it and it's influence on others.

 

[Benny Bunter]

To my knowlege Loveless basically is just Shields and Belinda Butcher doing vocals, so you can't really blame the rest of the band for the tepidity of the rhythm section at least- they weren't even on the record!

But yeah, as much as I love that album, they definitely lost something rhythmically after 'isn't anything', Colm has been an amazing but criminally underused drummer in this band.

edit: well i think colm recorded some drums that were looped or resampled by shields, but its not really representative of what a kick ass drummer he is.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

i know its tempting to react to all the hype (im often guilty of this myself) which can become oppressive, but listening to the new album or loveless, i dont think its about listening to see how great they are as a 'band', its not really about that, its more about the overall effect. of course you can look at particular elements and point out how its shit or whatever (meg white frinstance was def a bit shit and clunky and hamfisted on a lot of white stripes songs, esp the slower ones, where it got seriously ploddy and boring, but on a lot, she was exactly right), but this is def a band where its about the sum transcending the parts and so on.

 

[connect_icut]

edit: well i think colm recorded some drums that were looped or resampled by shields, but its not really representative of what a kick ass drummer he is.

Colm plays live drums on two songs on Loveless. The rest of the rhythm tracks are based on samples of his playing. Kevin wanted live drums on the album but apparently Colm was "sick" (make of that what you will) for most of the period during which Loveless was recorded. I think Loveless is the greatest album ever released but I do feel that the programmed drums contribute to a lack of physicality. The rest of the band's classic work is a really uncanny mixture of physicality and dreaminess (listen to "Several Girls Galore"). It's nice to hear Colm playing drums again on this album but - weirdly - it seems like the most physically exciting tracks are the ones with programmed drums.

The problem with liking/not liking MBV is that, once you get really into them, everything else starts to seem a bit cheap and one-dimensional by comparison. I imagine people often get the same feeling when they get deep into one or another type of "extreme" music. But with MBV, because it's relatively accessible, it becomes hard to imagine why everyone wouldn't feel the same way.

 

[mistersloane]

I fully understand all of the reasons for people liking the Valentines, I just cant stand the vocals. See also Stereolab, two good bands ruined by aesthetics.

 

[baboon2004]

Like MBV a lot, but never understood the extraordinary hype around them compared to other bands of the era, other than a reaction to their not having released a follow-up to Loveless for 22 years. In 1991, were people proclaiming Loveless the best record ever made, or thereabouts (genuine question)?

The answer to my question:
"Although Shields feared a critical panning,[43] reviews of Loveless were almost unanimous with praise.[44] NME awarded the album an eight out of ten score. Reviewer Dele Fadele saw My Bloody Valentine as the "blueprint" for the shoegaze genre, and wrote: "with 'Loveless' you could've expected the Irish / English partnership to succumb to self-parody or mimic The Scene That's Delighted To Eat Quiche [...] But no, 'Loveless' fires a silver-coated bullet into the future, daring all-comers to try and recreate its mixture of moods, feelings, emotion, styles and, yes, innovations." While Fadele expressed some disappointment that the group seemed to disassociate themselves from dance music and reggae basslines, he concluded "'Loveless' ups the ante, and, however decadent one might find the idea of elevating other human beings to deities, My Bloody Valentine, failings and all, deserve more than your respect."[45] Melody Maker writer Simon Reynolds praised the album, and wrote that Loveless "[reaffirms] how unique, how peerless MBV are." He declared, "Along with Mercury Rev's 'Yerself is Steam', 'Loveless' is the outermost, innermost, uttermost rock record of 1991." Reynolds noted that his only criticism was that "while My Bloody Valentine have amplified and refined what they already were, they've failed to mutate or leap into any kind of beyond."[46] Rolling Stone gave the album four out of five stars. In a review that also covered Chapterhouse and Creation labelmates Velvet Crush, reviewer Ira Robbins wrote, "Despite the record's intense ability to disorient—this is real do-not-adjust-your-set stuff—the effect is strangely uplifting. Loveless oozes a sonic balm that first embraces and then softly pulverizes the frantic stress of life."[47] Spin gave Loveless a mixed review with writer Jim Greer noting that the album's songs are "standard-sh and dull" and concluded that he felt "The warped music is a cool idea and I recommend the album—but not on the basis of the singing or the songs". "

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

http://thequietus.com/articles/08745-kevin-shields-interview-mbv-my-bloody-valentine

brilliant KS interview from last year.

So we took all that live playing he'd done and sampled it. He was already playing those patterns, but we recreated it. We'd had some problems with the engineer though... the first engineer walked out in disgust because we wouldn't listen to anything he had to say. We were trying to mute the drums so they didn't sound like rock drums, and he was saying "That's terrible, that's not rock & roll!" We said "Well, we hate rock & roll." He said "It doesn't sound natural." We said "That's exactly what we want." So he left.