Simon Jenkins on Iran

[craner]

But I note Padraig's been in.

 

[scottdisco]

droid:
Why is it that you view Iran alone as worthy of censure? Why are our much greater crimes (and those of our allies) invisible to your eyes?
&
How come political prisoners ONLY matter if they're in Iran (and not Israel/US/Egypt/Pakistan/Saudi Arabia etc...)?

Craner may not appreciate me saying this because he can clearly speak for himself, but i'm the bloke's mate and want to say, honestly droid, if you think he doesn't care about the sorts of issues you outline above, as we all do, then you just don't know him well enough.
you could go and read through the archives of his blogs to see his views on Israeli political prisoners and so on, for one small example.

i think his original point was a bit of a banterish one yes, and i read it as being addressed to satanmcnugget (who has a cool blog, FWIW) about poor old Ramin Jahanbegloo.
it's satanmcnugget's business what Amnesty International alerts they post about from AI's Iran section but it's not like Amnesty International don't have other alerts in their Iran chapter.
i know we all know this, so, yeah, perhaps Oliver's point was something of a curveball, but i can also see what he means.
in the context of the politics thread here and what they often descend to, it wasn't a bad point.

btw droid did you call Syria an ally of the USA earlier?
i might have misunderstood what could be a vital fullstop, to be fair

P.S.
we'll agree to differ with our opinions on his characterisations of Iran.

 

[droid]

Indeed? As I was tucking into a piping hot Americano and getting inky fingers from a complementary Wall Street Journal, thought I pop by and say hi!

It seems that things are still as bad as yesterday.

Oliver - how do you expect things to get better here if you avoid any kind of real discussion or engagement in favour of disposbale snideness? Yes - Padraig can be a bit of a gimp, but do what others do and ignore him! Maybe one day he'll learn that if he wants to convince people of anything, then he has to at least attempt some kind of non-psychotic interaction with them...

If youve no interest in being constructive, of making your case without contemptuosly dismissing 'us' all as some kind of homogenous Michael Moore group brain, then why are you here? Whats the point? Is it really that much fun taking cheap shots at people you know virtually nothing about? Cheap shots at your own assumptions and predijuces effectively.

Surely you have better things to be doing? I said it in another thread. Shit or get off the pot.

 

[droid]

droid:
Why is it that you view Iran alone as worthy of censure? Why are our much greater crimes (and those of our allies) invisible to your eyes?
&
How come political prisoners ONLY matter if they're in Iran (and not Israel/US/Egypt/Pakistan/Saudi Arabia etc...)?

Craner may not appreciate me saying this because he can clearly speak for himself, but i'm the bloke's mate and want to say, honestly droid, if you think he doesn't care about the sorts of issues you outline above, as we all do, then you just don't know him well enough.
you could go and read through the archives of his blogs to see his views on Israeli political prisoners and so on, for one small example.

First of all - that was a response to Oliver's original BS point, and as I said (just before the bit you quoted), it was an 'equally vapid question'.

Secondly, Ive searched his blog, and the only condemnation of Israel I found was a paragraph about radical settlers cutting down Olive trees. His posts on Dissensus (in the last year at least) are pretty monomaniacal on the subject of Iran. Im all ears if you want to send me a link.

Thirdly - is this the standard that commentators here are now held to? Do Luka and Oliver comb through Padraig's archives to try and qualify and clarify his stance before posting their latest sneering missive? Am I supposed to take the word of someone's friend over the words Craner chooses to post here? especially when Oliver's posts are characterised by ridiculous assumptions of his own making ? - 'Nah - hes alright mate - he wrote something about Israel once'...

i think his original point was a bit of a banterish one yes, and i read it as being addressed to satanmcnugget (who has a cool blog, FWIW) about poor old Ramin Jahanbegloo.
it's satanmcnugget's business what Amnesty International alerts they post about from AI's Iran section but it's not like Amnesty International don't have other alerts in their Iran chapter.
i know we all know this, so, yeah, perhaps Oliver's point was something of a curveball, but i can also see what he means.
in the context of the politics thread here and what they often descend to, it wasn't a bad point.

It was rubbish designed purely to provoke. Also highly ironic for him to take the piss out of someone for bringing up an issue that he himself has been highlighting for years - even bemoaning the fact that no-one pays attention...

btw droid did you call Syria an ally of the USA earlier?
i might have misunderstood what could be a vital fullstop, to be fair

I did indeed, as (im sure Oliver will tell you) Syria has been on and off a strategic ally of the US - most usefully during the first gulf war, when they aided military efforts against Iraq.

The full stop was a typo...

 

[craner]

Surely you have better things to be doing? I said it in another thread. Shit or get off the pot.

That's a good question and even better point. Honestly? Some people I know and like started Dissensus and use it. Actually, a number have stopped by now, quite sensibly. I don't know, reading this is just a bad habit I've acquired. It can occupy a morning tea break or two.

Maybe, Droid, with your encouragement, it'll be one I can finally kick!

 

[scottdisco]

whoops.
i misread vapid as valid , which was basically the point of my post.
[feels sheepish ]

sorry droid!

Oliver does go on about Mordechai Vanunu and Israeli F16's and the hill top youth and olive groves, doesn't he?
perhaps more in his old blog than either of his two newer ones.
shrugs.

i'll not begrudge Iran being flavour of the month though, eh.

and no i wouldn't presume to hold Padraig down to anything; his posts light up the board!
i guess this is a lesson to let others speak for themselves; my bad.

yeah i knew that about Syria, but in the more here and now they don't seem to have that many concrete allies do they.

 

[droid]

That's a good question and even better point. Honestly? Some people I know and like started Dissensus and use it. Actually, a number have stopped by now, quite sensibly. I don't know, reading this is just a bad habit I've acquired. It can occupy a morning tea break or two.

Maybe, Droid, with your encouragement, it'll be one I can finally kick!

Cheap teabreak thrills and provocations! I knew it!

FWIW, I dont think you should piss off - just quit with the attitude (I know thats rich coming from me! ). Engage constructively or not at all. At least attempt it... everyone complains that this forum has gone to the dogs - and whats their solution? to make it worse.

 

[bruno]

sorry to barge in on this exchange but, to address the original subject of this thread, it seems pretty obvious to me that the left is completely divorced from reality. i have read mr ahmadinejad's poetic letter, and no matter how charming and reasonable he may appear to be (he isn't) the fact is that this man and many of those in his government are criminals of the worst kind (torturers, repressors) whose word means nothing. these people are not the heirs of the great persian culture, quit being sympathetic to them.

and iran is flavour of the month. so what? events have a habit of taking place like this, one at a time. the left should be thrilled that the united states is actually addressing ahmadinejad with force instead of pretending that he doesen't exist, you would think it a splendid opportunity for a little protest against human rights abuses. instead, as usual, it's bush who is at fault for everything. the delusion!

 

[Slothrop]

sorry to barge in on this exchange but, to address the original subject of this thread, it seems pretty obvious to me that the left is completely divorced from reality. i have read mr ahmadinejad's poetic letter, and no matter how charming and reasonable he may appear to be (he isn't) the fact is that this man and many of those in his government are criminals of the worst kind (torturers, repressors) whose word means nothing. these people are not the heirs of the great persian culture, quit being sympathetic to them.

and iran is flavour of the month. so what? events have a habit of taking place like this, one at a time. the left should be thrilled that the united states is actually addressing ahmadinejad with force instead of pretending that he doesen't exist, you would think it a splendid opportunity for a little protest against human rights abuses. instead, as usual, it's bush who is at fault for everything. the delusion!

I don't have a great deal of love for the current Iranian regime, but surely opposing them with force is about the worst thing you can do from anyone's point of view. A lot of ink is spilled on the subject of the US governments need for an 'enemy' to help keep the populace in line, but the exact same thing applies in the case of Iran - the more the west ratles its sabres, the worse the prospect becomes for the moderate and democratic elements in Iran, and the more appealing ruthless hardliners are.

There's even a suggestion that one of the motives for the Iranian government to push the whole nuclear issue was to help to stir up that outside threat, and keep their grip nice and strong...

 

[droid]

...no matter how charming and reasonable he may appear to be (he isn't) the fact is that this man and many of those in his government are criminals of the worst kind (torturers, repressors) whose word means nothing. these people are not the heirs of the great persian culture, quit being sympathetic to them.

Change 'Persian culture' to 'American culture' and you have a perfect summary IMO. Only difference is, the President of Iran is actually capable of writing 8 pages worth of text...

Also - find one post on this board from anybody that claims that Ahmadinejad is a 'reasonable' character and defends him as such... just one will do.

Otherwise you know what you can do with that straw man of yours...

 

[bruno]

I don't have a great deal of love for the current Iranian regime, but surely opposing them with force is about the worst thing you can do from anyone's point of view. A lot of ink is spilled on the subject of the US governments need for an 'enemy' to help keep the populace in line, but the exact same thing applies in the case of Iran - the more the west ratles its sabres, the worse the prospect becomes for the moderate and democratic elements in Iran, and the more appealing ruthless hardliners are.

There's even a suggestion that one of the motives for the Iranian government to push the whole nuclear issue was to help to stir up that outside threat, and keep their grip nice and strong...

right, but then if you leave things to rot you're not doing much good either.

that theory you mention seems plausible except for the fact that this particular enemy is capable of bombing you to kingdom come, but then again the level of ideological insulation these people have must make that reality a little blurry.

i don't know, i oscillate between 'you must interfere' and 'you musn't interfere' a lot during an average day so i'm probably not the one to judge.

 

[corneilius]

Iran Letter - his words, my meaning

States interfere with matters in ways that remove choice, autonomy and power. They do so, historically, to exploit 'resources'. They are always wrong.

The people, who in name only, (voting is not power, only a shadow of it) comprise those states were originally co-erced into the idea of states by violence, and latterly, in some 'democratic' cases, by conscious psychological manipulation. They are always abused.

It is systemic, instituionalised and more importantly lethal to our survival as a species.

In the search for solutions here can be no sides, for we are all in it together.

The letter appeals to the people of all sides to wake up, and though that might not be the Iranian presidents intention (would he want his people wake up, being the a leader of a state?) it is our intention. And that is what really matters to me.

How do I as a person move forward the process of conflict resolution through transparant negotiation, in my own life, in the life of my local community and in the wider community?

What helps me recognise the power of my intention, and encourages me in the process of manifesting that intentions goals?