UK education system- not meritocratic shocker

[don_quixote]

i didnt realise it as a child, but i've come to realise that compared my peers i'm exceptionally bright at maths.

the problem i found with my turn-of-the-millennium state education is that i attended:
1) a very middle class state village primary school (1990-1997)
2) a lower-middle class middle and upper school (1997-2002)
3) a huge city centre sixth form college (1600-2000 pupils) which was 80% ethnic minority students

out of all of these it was only the sixth form college which ever pushed me. i was pushed occasionally at other places, usually involving being set my own work away from the rest of the class, but i tended to get lazy and the schools were happy for this to happen since i was bound to get top marks even if i didnt do any work for a whole year. not that i would since i enjoyed the subject, but nonetheless.

the thing i've noticed about most people is that they always consider their own education to be the best, and are fairly blinkered about other peoples experiences, which could suggest the advice in the news article linked in the opening post. from my own experience moving to a sixth form college was the best decision i ever made, as it took me out of a stale environment for myself and also a large sixth form college had the neccessary resources and students to provide support for those who needed to take the further exams that universities were asking about.

i'm not sure what i would be doing or how much better i could be if i'd attended schools that had driven me from the start. although i'm pleased that i never attended an independent or grammar school.

 

[tryptych]

the thing i've noticed about most people is that they always consider their own education to be the best, and are fairly blinkered about other peoples experiences...

although i'm pleased that i never attended an independent or grammar school.

curious - why's that?

 

[doll steak]

Perhaps because he's not committing class treason so he can get that management job he always never wanted?

the problem with education is that it operates according to a value which totally ignores the difference in the aspirations of different sections of soceity. If you're the child of an sparky or chippy you dont see the opportunity of organising the most efficient rip off of the people who do the useful work in society as something to bust a gut to achieve.

I went to a cut-throat comp.

 

[swears]

Perhaps because he's not committing class treason so he can get that management job he always never wanted?

the problem with education is that it operates according to a value which totally ignores the difference in the aspirations of different sections of soceity. If you're the child of an sparky or chippy you dont see the opportunity of organising the most efficient rip off of the people who do the useful work in society as something to bust a gut to achieve.

I went to a cut-throat comp.

I went to a grammar and met people from estates and people with estates.
I never felt like any kind of class traitor for a second. It was a case of passing an exam.
A lot of the kids that went to the local comp were middle class lads that felt like acting hard was more important than academic attainment.
I don't remember any ten year olds that felt same way as same way as you.
What ten year old even considers class?

(I actually moved up from Middlesex to live with my nan so I could take the eleven plus on the wirral, one of the few places that has it to this day.)

 

[swears]

so how does that link to differential educational attainment?
are you talking about cultural capital (notice no 'k's)?

No I'm just saying that those

public school/ university educated individuals

are just (sadly) after a few quid, like anybody else these days.
Nothing more fishy about it than that.

 

[Ned]

Perhaps because he's not committing class treason so he can get that management job he always never wanted?

This is so true, a privileged education is supposed to 'open any door' but it actually only really opens the doors which say 'Earn an extraordinary amount of money by working 70 hours a week'.

 

[john eden]

This is so true, a privileged education is supposed to 'open any door' but it actually only really opens the doors which say 'Earn an extraordinary amount of money by working 70 hours a week'.

I don't agree with this - I've known a lot of people who were living relatively "bohemian" lives and were quite successful in their field, whether it be art or music or whatever. I could never figure out how they were able to dedicate so much time to their projects and seemingly earn a liviing from them when I had to work as well.

It turned out that a lot of them were supported by their rich parents to a massive degree and that others had learnt the confidence of blagging arts grants, (or had known the people, or the sort of people, who dished them out) at school/university.

It sometimes took years to work this out because they often went to extraordinary lengths to hide their backgrounds and sources of income.

 

[baboon2004]

I don't remember any ten year olds that felt same way as same way as you.
What ten year old even considers class?

Are you kidding? They may not frame it in the same way as they will when they are older, but accents tend to be a dead giveaway even at that age. In my experience.

 

[jenks]

Arriving in the top set having come from a council estate to be greeted to a chorus of 'Dan, Dan, the dustbin man' can teach all you need to know about class at the age of 10.

and my Dad wasn't, he worked on the buildings.

 

[bassnation]

I don't agree with this - I've known a lot of people who were living relatively "bohemian" lives and were quite successful in their field, whether it be art or music or whatever. I could never figure out how they were able to dedicate so much time to their projects and seemingly earn a liviing from them when I had to work as well.

It turned out that a lot of them were supported by their rich parents to a massive degree and that others had learnt the confidence of blagging arts grants, (or had known the people, or the sort of people, who dished them out) at school/university.

It sometimes took years to work this out because they often went to extraordinary lengths to hide their backgrounds and sources of income.

and conversly you have working class people doing 70 hours a week earning a pittance.

there are no hard and fast rules - there are people from poor backgrounds who make a huge success of themselves despite whatever disadvantages are stacked against them. but you are statistically more likely to succeed in life with a private education. this is a fact that is beyond dispute.

 

[don_quixote]

it's disputable that it's a result of a private education

 

[matt b]

No I'm just saying that those are just (sadly) after a few quid, like anybody else these days.
Nothing more fishy about it than that.

the point being, that people from rich backgrounds are more likely to achieve this regardless of ability.
that is pretty fishy.

 

[matt b]

it's disputable that it's a result of a private education

change 'private education' for 'wealth' and its not

 

[baboon2004]

and conversly you have working class people doing 70 hours a week earning a pittance.

there are no hard and fast rules - there are people from poor backgrounds who make a huge success of themselves despite whatever disadvantages are stacked against them. but you are statistically more likely to succeed in life with a private education. this is a fact that is beyond dispute.

Exactly (well, perhaps not necessarily private, as there are some state school education routes that are roughly equivalent), and I can't believe anyone is actually arguing against this.

My bugbear with the whole education system has been the push towards getting every middle class teenager into university, whether they give a shit about further education or not (mostly by extending the university system so far that it has lost any minimum standards it might once have had), as if this somehow represents a success, while making it even more difficult for kids whose parents wil not/cannot support them through further education.

And then politicians/middle England (of which I suppose I am unwillingly part) have the gall to wonder why a lot of kids from less privileged backgrounds decide by the age of 14 or so that they can't be arsed, when they come to see how solidly the odds are stacked against them.

It's a fucking disgrace.

 

[baboon2004]

Coda:

I've met (several) people who allegedly went to university, and weren't aware of what the Holocaust is/was.

Words fail me.

 

[swears]

Arriving in the top set having come from a council estate to be greeted to a chorus of 'Dan, Dan, the dustbin man' can teach all you need to know about class at the age of 10.

and my Dad wasn't, he worked on the buildings.

OK, you have a basic understanding of the difference between poor and rich. But I don't think you would associate going to a comp with being a "class traitor". In fact, in that situation you might want to go to a grammar, because comps generally have a rep for being tougher, and at least the insults would stay verbal. As a kid I was a bit of an oddball and a weed at school, and I was terrified of the idea of getting battered at the local comp. (I heard later on it wasn't quite so bad.)

Anyway my point overall on this thread is the idea of valuing academic success is just as important as actually having the money to support you through the process. My dad even told me at 18 that he wouldn't be paying towards my tuition fees, as university was "a load of bollocks" and suggested I pull some sort of scam involving telling the authorities I lived with my nan and had become estranged from him.

 

[matt b]

Anyway my point overall on this thread is the idea of valuing academic success is just as important as actually having the money to support you through the process. My dad even told me at 18 that he wouldn't be paying towards my tuition fees, as university was "a load of bollocks" and suggested I pull some sort of scam involving telling the authorities I lived with my nan and had become estranged from him.

so you ARE talking about cultural capital, which (again) favours the rich

 

[swears]

so you ARE talking about cultural capital, which (again) favours the rich

Sort of. Rich kids are going to do better because of their background,
but it's not just pounds and pence. It's that feeling of confidence in yourself or simply just realising the value of an education. It's having "middle class" attitudes even if the money isn't there.

 

[matt b]

It's having "middle class" attitudes even if the money isn't there.

evidence?

 

[swears]

*sigh*
It's not really something I can prove, to be honest. Although from my own experience and that of my peers, I would say there is truth in that. I'm not about to spend hours googling statistics.
I'd say my point makes logical sense. You can't actually buy A-levels, the student still has to sit down and take them. So, overall, the wealthy are in a position to do better, but I still know rich kids that smoke weed all day and couldn't be arsed with education in the slightest, and mates that grew up broke in single parent families but had family that told them to knuckle down.