Borat

IdleRich

IdleRich
Come on, you can do better than that.
"Lovely, except your "hole" is not a hole - its your attempt to imagine one"
You say that one things leads to another, I point out one way in which it does not necessarily follow, that's not an imaginary hole it's a hole.

"Again, if you had actually bothered to read the post, even quickly, you might have spotted the bit about erroneous reasoning: "The conclusion is that it would be absurd to subscribe to such "reasoning"""
What you said was this

"[1] Aside from the controversy the film provoked, if Kubrick had no problem with the film, if he believed it to have been harmless, then why on earth would he withdraw it? And in total secrecy? Are you implying that he was irrational, that he was behaving in an utterly stupid manner by requesting the withdrawal of a film he believed to be harmless (the logical corollory to this implication being that he would not have withdrawn the film if he believed it to have been harmful)? No, I'm very far from being facetious here, but simply exposing lazy reasoning based on imaginary "facts." The conclusion is that it would be absurd to subscribe to such "reasoning": he withdrew it because he considered it to be dangerous, and did so independently of the raging controversy"
You are clearly saying that the reasoning that is not worth subscribing to is the idea that he withdrew the film without pressure. You are not pointing out your own fallacious reasoning which you use to draw that conclusion. I am pointing it out for you and you are trying to wriggle out if it but it's there in black and white.

"And you here engaging in personal abuse is an "example" of well-constructed argument? It is you who persistently spouts nonsense, and are here utterly vacuous in your post where your only agenda is to gratuitously hurl insult. Now have you something, however trivial, to contribute to this discussion, apart from yet more abuse and misdirected pedantry about first order predicate calculus?"
Perhaps you have a point here, I should just stick to the bits that are demonstrably wrong.

I'm surprised you point out my pseudo-intellectualism as all I'm doing is taking exception to the way you shout people down and pointing out that you are wrong to do so. I wouldn't have thought that there was anything there that was intellectual or pseudo-intellectual or anything like.
 
it was even illegal to show clockwork in academic institutions or film clubs - this was no half-hearted ban at all. funnily enough it was the more effective than a bbfc ban!

also i have a interviews given by SK on clockwork post1971 and also a letter he wrote to the editor of the NY times regarding the film... will scan through them shortly and post any relevant information,

Some relevant articles dealing with the controversy (including the two you mention, lazybones):

The Clockwork Orange Controversy by Christian Bugge
"Psychedelic Fascism" / The Hechinger Debacle (includes Kubrick's letter to the NYT).
Anthony Burgess on A Clockwork Orange, excerts from his autobiography.
On Kubrick's Ban of ACO in the United Kingdom
Kubrick on A Clockwork Orange, An interview with Michel Ciment

And finally, an excerpt from UK Clock ticks again for Kubrick's Orange by James Howard, who summarises all the main contradictions:

By the end of 1973, though, A Clockwork Orange had disappeared from screens in Britain - unavailable for screening even by as eminent a body as the National Film Theatre who mounted a Kubrick retrospective in 1979 (although, it was claimed, it could be hired for screening in 'hospitals, prisons and borstals' !). A cinema manager in London's Kings Cross was later fined £ 1,000 by the Federation Against Copyright Theft for showing the film without the owner's permission, all of which added to the myth - which, typically with Kubrick, became 'fact' - that the movie had been either a) banned by the authorities, or b) withdrawn 'on the express orders of Stanley Kubrick', who then employed a team of 'spies' to ensure that the film remained unseen.

The truth is both less interesting and more disturbing: A Clockwork Orange - granted an 'X' certificate and passed uncut by the British Board of Film Censors - has never been 'banned' in Britain, other than by a handful of enlightened local authorities, led by the good folk of Accrington Borough Council. True enough, Kubrick was deeply disturbed by press reports claiming to link the film to acts of street violence but, as his brother-in-law Jan Harlan told me, this had more to do with the absurdity of the claims being made. 'It was very upsetting to him,' he says today. 'Stanley was a very sensitive person, and he would call me early in the morning and say 'look at this article, they must be out of their minds' He was deeply upset by all of this bad press he got in the UK almost all of his life - even after his death.'

Harlan - Executive Producer on all of Kubrick's remaining pictures after A Clockwork Orange - recalls how 'Stanley got such a hammering, and was accused of contributing to the falling apart of society in the broadest sense, and of course he personally was very hurt by this, because really the film should have an opposite effect. It's a deeply democratic film, and of course it is only a film. I dare say that most of those who criticised him hadn't even seen the film anyway.' Kubrick's widow Christiane told Sight and Sound magazine a few months after his death in 1999 that the director had been baffled by press reaction both to this film and, increasingly, to himself. 'It's only in England that there's this envious, strange joy in knocking him off his pedestal,' she said, adding 'even if he himself never climbed onto one. Because A Clockwork Orange played with the background of England, they blamed every crime in history on Stanley's film. That only happened here, nowhere else.'

Potentially more serious than the press reports, however, were the letters which began to reach Kubrick who, Harlan says, 'was singled out by various groups as a villain, and received personal threats.' Warners Advertising Executive Julian Senior worked closely with the director on the film and agrees that Kubrick was coming under increasing pressure from a number of directions. 'Nowadays they are called stalkers,' he says, 'but we started having guards in a mobile van on the driveway, and Hertfordshire police said some of the letters were becoming a little bizarre.' The joint decision was taken by studio and director that the film would no longer be available in the UK although, as Harlan makes clear, 'strictly, in legal terms, Stanley had no rights, but they agreed to do this, at great expense to themselves. It was much more than a matter of contracts, he and they had an excellent relationship, and Warner Brothers simply complied with his request.'

In the absence of any public response from Kubrick to the escalating press hysteria, Anthony Burgess had taken it upon himself to defend the movie as early as August 1973, just as Warners were about to take it out of circulation. Calling it 'a remarkable work, probably already a classic,' the writer said that he was 'increasingly exasperated by the assumption that it was my duty to defend the film against its attackers.. It is surely the duty of the maker of the film to speak out for his own work.'

Unaware of the true situation, as most people were, Joan Bakewell later (1988) wrote in the Sunday Times 'What are we to make of a film, passed by the censor, but taken out of circulation by its own maker ? The idea of a genius trying to recapture the work he has unleashed upon the world is one that might take Kubrick's own fancy.. yet once it is released, a film of the force of A Clockwork Orange does, for good or ill, enter the public imagination.' So the legend grew, with sporadic calls for the movie to be shown in cinemas again while Kubrick, as ever, remained silent.​
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Hmmm...I can look up any litigation between Kubrick and Warner Bros to the effect of--did he give up his publishing rights to Warner Bros in the U.S.? He'd have to do so legally to stop getting royalties. Still, if he didn't do this, then it seems like he was scared of losing face (or I suppose, saving face) more than anything, given the information you've provided from your source above.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
It also sounds like the author of that quote in the middle about how "they blamed every crime in history on Stanley's film" thinks it's absurd to link real life violence with film violence. They might also call it absurd to link real life racism to racism as filmic topos, no?
 
Come on, you can do better than that.

Keep your patronising bullshit to yourself. You're incapable of doing better than that

You say that one things leads to another, I point out one way in which it does not necessarily follow, that's not an imaginary hole it's a hole.

You did no such thing. You constructed an assumption that had no empirical basis.

You are clearly saying that the reasoning that is not worth subscribing to is the idea that he withdrew the film without pressure. You are not pointing out your own fallacious reasoning which you use to draw that conclusion.

You're nuts. Can't you even READ simple sentences? I am clearly saying that the reasoning that is not worth subscribing to is the idea that he withdrew the film due to pressure. He withdrew the film after the controversy had filtered out, and in secrecy. Stop playing infantile games of unreason.


I am pointing it out for you and you are trying to wriggle out if it but it's there in black and white.

No, you're avoiding it, arguing black is white, and in full cinemascope. You are simply pointing out for us your own ridiculous prejudice. To repeat:

[2] As stated, the film was withdrawn privately after it had been running in cinemas in Britain for around 60-plus weeks, withdrawn without any public announcement, without the media or the public knowing that it had even been withdrawn (and they were not to discover that it had been so withdrawn for another 6-plus years). Now, please correct me if I'm mistaken here, but why, if Kubrick withdrew the film in order to end the controversy, was it removed without telling anyone? Surely its withdrawal would have been publicised as widely as possible in order to calm everyone down (with the tabloid media then barking "Well done Stanley! Good show old chap! Proper order!" etc)? The reason this did not occur is [a] The controversy had already died down (otherwise it would have continued, because nobody knew that the film had been withdrawn, just that it had ended its natural theatrical run, like every other film) and As the film was actually withdrawn after the controversy, it was therefore, by definition, withdrawn for reasons unrelated to the controversy itself, for Kubrick's own reasons (reasons that remained right up to his death, during which time a reverse controversy developed, viz "Why won't he let it be shown, now that the film is distinctly tame relative to numerous other non-controversial films?").




[Rest of idlerich's abuse snipped]
 
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nomadologist

Guest
You were using logical fallacies, Hundredmillion. Not that I think everything can be expressed in language according to the strictures of symbolic logic, but still. You appealled to logic/illogicality first to take someone else down--IdleRich is just responding in kind.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Really love this part of the interview with Burgess:

"Alex loves rape and Beethoven: what do you think that implies?

I think this suggests the failure of culture to have any morally refining effect on society. Hitler loved good music and many top Nazis were cultured and sophisticated men but it didn't do them, or anyone else, much good.

Contrary to Rousseau, do you believe that man is born bad and that society makes him worse?

I wouldn't put it like that. I think that when Rousseau transferred the concept of original sin from man to society, he was responsible for a lot of misguided social thinking which followed. I don't think that man is what he is because of an imperfectly structured society, but rather that society is imperfectly structured because of the nature of man. No philosophy based on an incorrect view of the nature of man is likely to produce social good."
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
@Nomadologist: Yes, Little Britain is racist, mysogynistic and selfhatingly homophobic. Also incredibly juvenile, unfunny, and believes a man blacked up in a grotesque fat suit (and as a woman too) is the most amusing thing in the world. Its not opening up wounds and gazing inside, its not subveting anything, or drawing our attention to anything, its idiotically purile stuff that merely confirms its viewers prejudices.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Originally Posted by IdleRich
"You say that one things leads to another, I point out one way in which it does not necessarily follow, that's not an imaginary hole it's a hole."

"You did no such thing. You constructed an assumption that had no empirical basis."
That is not a relevant reply to what I said. I'll go through it one more time, there is no need to appeal to any empirical basis. You said that there there would be no rational reason for him to withdraw a film unless he considered it harmful, I'm merely pointing it out that there could be many other reasons for withdrawing it.
There may well be empirical reasons to believe that this was or was not the case but the above argument does not strengthen them.

Originally Posted by IdleRich
"You are clearly saying that the reasoning that is not worth subscribing to is the idea that he withdrew the film without pressure. You are not pointing out your own fallacious reasoning which you use to draw that conclusion."

"You're nuts. Can't you even READ simple sentences? I am clearly saying that the reasoning that is not worth subscribing to is the idea that he withdrew the film due to pressure. He withdrew the film after the controversy had filtered out, and in secrecy. Stop playing infantile games of unreason."
Er, yes you're right, I meant to say "without considering it harmful". I can admit when what I said was wrong. Anyway, as I'm sure you know by now, the original point still stands, your logic was backwards and it doesn't reflect well on you to refuse to admit it.

"Originally Posted by IdleRich
I am pointing it out for you and you are trying to wriggle out if it but it's there in black and white."

"No, you're avoiding it, arguing black is white, and in full cinemascope. You are simply pointing out for us your own ridiculous prejudice. To repeat:

[2] As stated, the film was withdrawn privately after it had been running in cinemas in Britain for around 60-plus weeks, withdrawn without any public announcement, without the media or the public knowing that it had even been withdrawn (and they were not to discover that it had been so withdrawn for another 6-plus years). Now, please correct me if I'm mistaken here, but why, if Kubrick withdrew the film in order to end the controversy, was it removed without telling anyone? Surely its withdrawal would have been publicised as widely as possible in order to calm everyone down (with the tabloid media then barking "Well done Stanley! Good show old chap! Proper order!" etc)? The reason this did not occur is [a] The controversy had already died down (otherwise it would have continued, because nobody knew that the film had been withdrawn, just that it had ended its natural theatrical run, like every other film) and As the film was actually withdrawn after the controversy, it was therefore, by definition, withdrawn for reasons unrelated to the controversy itself, for Kubrick's own reasons (reasons that remained right up to his death, during which time a reverse controversy developed, viz "Why won't he let it be shown, now that the film is distinctly tame relative to numerous other non-controversial films?"). "

Again, your reply has no relevance to what I said. I'm pointing out that your arguments are incorrect in their structure and that you should not be shouting down people who disagree with them as they are in fact correct to disagree. Producing some evidence to show that the conclusion was correct has absolutely no bearing on the validity of the structure of your argument.
I would also like to point out that just going "no you're avoiding it" is not an answer although it's quite typical of your style. Can you not see why you annoy me when I at least attempt to answer your arguments as though they have merit and you just reply with playground style insults?
 
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nomadologist

Guest
@Nomadologist: Yes, Little Britain is racist, mysogynistic and selfhatingly homophobic. Also incredibly juvenile, unfunny, and believes a man blacked up in a grotesque fat suit (and as a woman too) is the most amusing thing in the world. Its not opening up wounds and gazing inside, its not subveting anything, or drawing our attention to anything, its idiotically purile stuff that merely confirms its viewers prejudices.

For the record, I don't really like Little Britain, and I never said it was "opening up wounds and gazing inside." Those words were originally posted by Noel Emits.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Virilio interview quote that I'm stealing from a paper I've been writing for waay too long now, that I should be finishing instead of refreshing this page every four minutes:

JÉRÔME SANS: Faced with the plethora of possibilities, what game should we play?

PAUL VIRILIO: Play at being a critic. Deconstruct the game in order to play with it. Instead of accepting the rules, challenge and modify them. Without the freedom to critique and reconstruct, there is no truly free game: we are addicts and nothing more.

[this paper is a research paper about video game violence and its correlation or lack thereof to "real life" violence. so this message board is actually a resource. yeah...righht...]
 
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gek-opel

entered apprentice
@ Nomadologist- Yes, I compressed the retort to you and Emits. For that I apologise.

The Simpsons you say? It all comes down to whether how dodgy you think the character of Apu really is. Quite dodgy I think is the answer.

Also the problem with something like Family Guy (which you referred to earlier) is that its pretty lame, toothless stuff, not nihilistic enough, really.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
@ Nomadologist- Yes, I compressed the retort to you and Emits.

And I wasn't talking about Little Britain, as I'm sure you realise. :)

I've never found it particularly cathartic, just dumb.

I did like the weight watchers sketch where she tells them to cut their food in half, and because it's then half the calories, you can eat twice as much!
Something profound there.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
@ Nomadologist- Yes, I compressed the retort to you and Emits. For that I apologise.

The Simpsons you say? It all comes down to whether how dodgy you think the character of Apu really is. Quite dodgy I think is the answer.

Also the problem with something like Family Guy (which you referred to earlier) is that its pretty lame, toothless stuff, not nihilistic enough, really.

you think?? i think the earlier stuff is some of the worst most racist sexist trash i've ever seen. i'll look up examples on youtube
 
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nomadologist

Guest
holy fucking shit i just lost three days of work. does anyone know how to recover word temp files? shhhhit sorry this is hte wrong thread but i'm about to have a nervous breakdown
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
"Alex loves rape and Beethoven: what do you think that implies?

I think this suggests the failure of culture to have any morally refining effect on society. Hitler loved good music and many top Nazis were cultured and sophisticated men but it didn't do them, or anyone else, much good.
I've heard this argument before and I think it's wobbly. High-level Nazis' love for highbrow culture doesn't neccesarily refute that culture in general has morally edifying merits. It simply suggests that a lover of the fine arts can, potentially, be as morally depraved as the average Joe.
 
Idlerich, continuing to displace a discussion about the Clockwork Orange controversy onto his ludicrous, decontextualised disquisition on monotonic logic:

That is not a relevant reply to what I said.

It was a very relevant reply to what you said. [Did someone just say "Monty Python"?]

I'll go through it one more time, there is no need to appeal to any empirical basis.

It is your indifference to the actual chronology of events leading to the withdrawal of the film that has you taking refuge in irrelevant logical nonsense . No need to "go through it" one more time as we heard you clearly the first time, where you confused a parody of logic with the real thing, imagining you could demolish everything I was saying solely on the basis that the parody was illogical, as intended. Charming.

You said that there there would be no rational reason for him to withdraw a film unless he considered it harmful, I'm merely pointing it out that there could be many other reasons for withdrawing it.

Oh please, let us have a list of these many other (rational?) reasons, oh logical one!


Er, yes you're right, I meant to say "without considering it harmful". I can admit when what I said was wrong.

I can apologise for not presenting my arguments in sufficiently black and white logical terms. It was wrong of me, Professor Ayer.


Anyway, as I'm sure you know by now, the original point still stands, your logic was backwards and it doesn't reflect well on you to refuse to admit it.

What original point? What logic was backwards? Refuse to admit what? It wouldn't reflect well for me to collude in your nonsensical logical deflections, especially when you're someone so wrapped up in depoliticised logical game-playing that you can't even see any problem with a white person blacking up ...


Again, your reply has no relevance to what I said.

Of course not, because what you said is of no relevance.

I'm pointing out that your arguments are incorrect in their structure and that you should not be shouting down people who disagree we them as they are in fact correct to disagree.

You're not pointing out anything, you're just making pedantic pronouncements in a hysterical attempt to impose your obsolete logic fetish where it has absolutely no relevance, while shouting down people who disagree with your logical correctness.

Can you not see why you annoy me ... ?

I can see it all right, and the reasons you fail to understand why [Hint: have you ever attempted to add substance to your posts?]
 
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nomadologist

Guest
I've heard this argument before and I think it's wobbly. High-level Nazis' love for highbrow culture doesn't neccesarily refute that culture in general has morally edifying merits. It simply suggests that a lover of the fine arts can, potentially, be as morally depraved as the average Joe.

Hmm don't know. Look at us now. The Western Canon didn't really create Paradise on Earth did it? I mean texts are texts are texts. Relying on "high art" ideals doesn't mean a culture isn't completely decadent, either.

I have that song by whatzit Hot Chip in my head. "Over and Over"
 
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