Borat

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
OK, so people have heard of Kazakhstan (how many could point to it on a map, though? Really?). But before Borat, who had heard of anti-Kazakh racism? No one. Even if it existed, it certainly wasn't something we cared about. The fact that several people on this board casually ally British racism towards Poland, eg (a prejudice that has run through British culture on and off since at least the 1940s) with racism against Central Asian states shows how confused and simplistic we are about such issues.

For me, Borat has opened (whether S BC cares or not is beside the point, but I suspect he does a bit) the racism debate to encompass prejudice against all races/minorities, not just those with distinguished records of resistance and powerful lobbying voices. Kazakhstan certainly does not belong in this company, but does that make Kazakh jokes any more acceptable than black jokes? I think the most telling trend I've read in reports of the film is that people are most offended not by the Kazakh jokes, but by the 'Jew-running' scene. Jewish jokes appear to cause greater offence, and one thing S BC does appear to be asking is why should that be so - an absolutely legitimate question.

I don't think his intentions are that sophisticated. It's very easy to use doublethink to impute lines of thinking that aren't actually there.

For next week's debate: Mein Kampf: Proto-Nazi propaganda or brilliantly subversive satire?
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Do his intentions matter that much though?

(Serious question)

Very interesting question. I think so. Otherwise, if interpretation is total, then anything can mean anything, and the question of whether this film was good/bad/racist/satirical etc etc etc is impossible to answer.
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
Sorry to hi-jack the thread, but I think this Bruno clip is Cohen at his best: funny -- obviously, but at the same time exposing the shallowness and crudeness of the fashion industry.

Bruno at a Fashion Show

"Why don't you just put them on a train and send them to a camp and say: 'Bye, bye'":eek:
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
That this is so blindingly obvious is exactly the reason it's not racist. At all.

Yes, that's right. And The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is not racist because there's no Jewish conspiracy to control the world.

The fact that the actual character the movie is based on is so ridiculous makes the exposure of his victims (reference the the final solution advocating ranch owner, or the "SPRING BREAK!!" jock morons targeted by Bruno) even more poignant.

Poignant? Jocks and rednecks racist shock... Given that nothing is being 'exposed' here, it's pretty clear that such 'exposure' is the flimsiest of pretexts to use racist material with impunity ---
 
O

Omaar

Guest
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117953687.html?categoryid=13&cs=1&s=h&p=0

"Borat" has sparked its first lawsuit from its unsuspecting stars.

Two U. of South Carolina frat boys who make sexist and racist comments in the pic sued 20th Century Fox and the "Borat" producers on Thursday, claiming they were drunk at the time they signed a release to appear in the film.

They also claim the producers assured them that the movie they'd appear in would never be shown in the U.S.

Plaintiffs seek unspecified damages and demand that Fox to pull "Borat" from theaters.

Never identified by name in "Borat," the pair did not give their names in the lawsuit for fear of further public humiliation. But their attorney, Oliver Taillieu, said the main issue is fraud.
 
Do his intentions matter that much though?

(Serious question)

only to him I suppose. I think it was his intention to

a) make a film
b) capitalise on his fame
c) make a lot of money from the film
d) become even more famous
d) force people to confront racism/cultural elitism using humour
e) highlight how fucked up people are

I still haven't seen it but i imagine it has it's moments.
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Yes, that's right. And The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is not racist because there's no Jewish conspiracy to control the world.

hahahaha... yep, they're exactly the same thing. well done, you've certainly shown me.


k-punk said:
Given that nothing is being 'exposed' here, it's pretty clear that such 'exposure' is the flimsiest of pretexts to use racist material with impunity ---

It seems strange that whilst accusing baron cohen of exploiting people's existing feelings of superiority, you still make it very clear that one of the reasons you dislike the film is that everything it demonstrates is totally obvious to you already, so it must be obvious to everyone else, ever, or they're stupid.
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
hahahaha... yep, they're exactly the same thing. well done, you've certainly shown me.

OK.

The argument, evidently, is not that Borat is the same as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It is that to excuse something of racism if it has no basis in social reality is absurd, since it would excuse more or less any example of racism one could think of, especially the most noxious cases.

Here is the logic.

Something cannot be racist if it is not based on social reality. (your premiss)

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is not based on social reality.

Therefore The Protocols of the Elders of the Zion is not racist.

I suggest that either the first premiss be abandoned or you demonstrate how the conclusion does not follow. (Unless you think the second premiss is not true, of course.)


It seems strange that whilst accusing baron cohen of exploiting people's existing feelings of superiority, you still make it very clear that one of the reasons you dislike the film is that everything it demonstrates is totally obvious to you already, so it must be obvious to everyone else, ever, or they're stupid.

No, I'm assuming that people are not stupid and therefore don't need these 'revelations'. Were you, for instance, surprised to learn that jocks and rednecks are racist? Or are the film's 'exposures' for the benefit of an Other, less informed than you?
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Here is the logic.

Something cannot be racist if it is not based on social reality. (your premiss)

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is not based on social reality.

Therefore The Protocols of the Elders of the Zion is not racist.

I suggest that either the first premiss be abandoned or you demonstrate how the conclusion does not follow. (Unless you think the second premiss is not true, of course.)

I deny the accuracy of the first premise, and I kind of resent your putting words in my mouth. It's a massive simplification to suggest that Borat and the protocols... are equivalent in terms of their content. The film is a fiction, and, crucially, doesn't purport to portray the realities of Kazakhstan at all. Everything about the Borat character is exaggerated to the ridiculous, and the way the film is constructed and edited makes this even more obvious. Despite the fact that the protocols of the elders of zion is also fictional, its content is sincere and the writers are attempting to convince their readers of its authority.

I'm not 100% sure on the content of the protocols, but from looking at wikipedia it seems pretty vague as to whether it's genuine or whether it's satire... if it is satire then I guess the comparison makes slightly more sense, but this ambiguity and the deadpan tone it would have to be written in so as to cause any motivational confusion shows equally well how dissimilar it is to this film..

k punk said:
No, I'm assuming that people are not stupid and therefore don't need these 'revelations'. Were you, for instance, surprised to learn that jocks and rednecks are racist? Or are the film's 'exposures' for the benefit of an Other, less informed than you?

I'm not confident enough in humanity to assume that everyone knows everything about everything. I never claimed to be. Even if people are aware of these kind of issues, I think the occasional blatent example can help reinforce existing beliefs..
 
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I think it was his intention to

a) make a film
b) capitalise on his fame
c) make a lot of money from the film
d) become even more famous
d) force people to confront racism/cultural elitism using humour
e) highlight how fucked up people are

I still haven't seen it but i imagine it has it's moments.

Isn't there enough of the imaginary within the film itself without having to construct yet another fictional meta-film narrative in order to justify an interpretation of the film that bears no relation to the actual film itself?

The film is about Borat, not Cohen, or his "motives". What Cohen is or is doing - is irrelevant [he doesn't even exist in public]; you're searching for some imagined private real "identity" at variance with the very public Borat character in order to redeem and justify Borat. [The usual empty defence: "Oh, in private, in 'the real world' he's really a very nice and generous and reasonable guy"; which then begs the question "So why then is he such a racist asshole in public, both diagetically and non-diagetically?"]. The biggest assholes in history have always been defended this way. For those both featuring in and watching the film, it is Borat who exists, not some imagined behind-the-scenes Cohen ...


UFO said:
The film is a fiction, and, crucially, doesn't purport to portray the realities of Kazakhstan at all.

So, being a fiction and all, it therefore doesn't purport to portray the realities of racism either, all the film's characters being fictional an' all?


And further to K-punks argument - about the film's purported "exposure" of rednecks, etc, as - SHOCK HORROR OH MY GOD - racist ... Isn't the film here making patronising assumptions about it's audience's knowledge about the incidence of racism in society? Or are we to take it that those watching the Borat film are systematically stupid and therefore need to be spoon-fed reminded about the film's shock-horror racist exposes? Why should any of us be SHOCKED to "learn" that jocks and frat boys and rednecks are racist?


Really, there is nothing in this film that is being newly shock-horror 'exposed'; rather, as previously argued, it is all too obvious that such 'exposure' is actually the weakest, the shallowist of justifications for Borat to freely plaster all of his film with the most predictable of racist indulgence. So who does the film benefit, who is it supposed to be
informing? The rednecks [who won't be watching it, presumably]?


[This just in ... Bush: "Iraq invasion, Abu Ghraib - it was all just a big joke. Only silly people could possibly have taken it all seriously ... So shut-up you folks and let's all get on with the joke."]
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
I deny the accuracy of the first premise, and I kind of resent your putting words in my mouth.

OK, well I certainly didn't intentionally misrepresent you. Let's try again...

I said: But Borat (unlike Ali G) has no relation to any social reality whatsoever.

You said: That this is so blindingly obvious is exactly the reason it's not racist. At all.

I inferred from this that you meant that no text which bears no relation to social reality can be racist.

It seems now that you didn't mean that. So what did you mean? I assume you are wanting to put the stress on 'blindingly obvious', i.e. 'no text which BLINDINGLY OBVIOUSLY bears no relation to any social reality can be racist'. I think this is even worse, because:

1. If it is blindingly obvious that Borat bears no relation to any social reality, then the same goes for any racist tract you could care to mention, including the Protocols, or Mein Kampf. The mark of the racist is fantasmatic inflation.

2. Blindingly obvious to whom? Not to racists, who take the Protocols or Mein Kampf very seriously indeed. It seems, then, that the implied audience of Borat is so unsophisticated that it can be surprised to learn that jocks and rednecks are racist, but which - at the same time - is miracuously, immediately aware that Borat is meant as a satire (of what? Oh yes, of racist stereotypes.)

It's a massive simplification to suggest that Borat and the protocols... are equivalent in terms of their content.

Yes, that would be absolutely stupid. Which is why, not only have I not implied that the two are equivalent, I have already specifically said that this is not the issue. Now who is putting words into other people's mouths? My point was simply that the Protocols, like any other racist text, is in large part DEFINED by its departure from social reality.

I'm not confident enough in humanity to assume that everyone knows everything about everything. I never claimed to be. Even if people are aware of these kind of issues, I think the occasional blatent example can help reinforce existing beliefs..

How does thinking that, really, anyone who cares is well aware that jocks can make racist statements become equivalent to thinking that 'everyone knows everything about everything'? What daring exposure next for Sacha Baron Cohen? Pope a Catholic? Bears shit in the woods? Well, there might be SOMEONE - more ignorant than US - who doesn't know...
 

petergunn

plywood violin
Can't see it at all, sorry. Again, Rich Hall is another of his acolytes who I think is far funnier than the man himself.


the sniglet guy? UGH....

i know he's like "famous" in england, but c'mon...

i'm not a fan of bill hicks' more philosphical type stuff, george carlin mines similar territoty w/o being sappy like hicks can be, but shit like this is great

"A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. Do you think when Jesus comes back, he's really going to want to see a fucking cross? Ow! Maybe that's why he hasn't shown up yet...it's like going up to Jackie Onassis wearing a sniper rifle pendant... Just thinking of John, Jackie. We love him. Trying to keep that memory alive, baby. "
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
the sniglet guy? UGH....

i know he's like "famous" in england, but c'mon...

i'm not a fan of bill hicks' more philosphical type stuff, george carlin mines similar territoty w/o being sappy like hicks can be, but shit like this is great

"A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. Do you think when Jesus comes back, he's really going to want to see a fucking cross? Ow! Maybe that's why he hasn't shown up yet...it's like going up to Jackie Onassis wearing a sniper rifle pendant... Just thinking of John, Jackie. We love him. Trying to keep that memory alive, baby. "

That bit is funny, I'll grant you. But moments like that are few and far between in the videos I've seen of his (and I've seen two or three).

Maybe one of the things I dislike is how Hicks pushes his points as if he's SO controversial, and no-one has ever thought of this shit before.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Doing media studies, I'm trying not to get involved in this discussion because I will have to see it rehashed in so many classes. heh. But I do think that even if I would laugh at Borat, that may be part of the problem, or at least problematic.

Have you ever heard it said that there is no such thing as an anti-war movie? That by its very nature, film as a medium is so powerfully a function of its own very deliberate staging that there is no way to depict war (or rape, or maybe racism) in a way that is not a glamorization, or in a way that does not feed the very thing you're trying to pose as problematic. The problem is, for example, when Jodie Foster in The Accused was raped, there was far more getting off on that for the audience than anyone would acknowledge. I remember someone talking about how pissed they were when they watched that movie, did not at all leave feeling self-righteous about having watched something harrowing, but left disturbed by the blatant eroticism of the rape, then searched the terms on google and came up with STILLS from the rape scene that were labeled "Jodie Foster naked!! Hott!!"

Many would say that there's something about the way images work that is such that all war, all rape, all depictions of violence,are going to have an erotic charge. This is something that has always been a huuuge discussion point among my classmates and I've had to search very hard to decide whether I agree. But I think this is part of the principle the anti-Borat camp are employing.

I made this point to my friends when crunk (specific the Ying-Yang twins, who I now think are pretty subversive) got big, and I've revised my opinion, but I there's a lot of room for ambivalence here. How far can you take self-parody of blackness and "the ghetto" before you're really just playing into racism. (Black people are ok in the media only if white people can say "look at the funny negroes with their strange ways! boy do i feel smart by comparison") Now I happen to think that the Ying-Yang twins got the last laugh. But still highly problematic to me.
 
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Isn't there enough of the imaginary within the film itself without having to construct yet another fictional meta-film narrative in order to justify an interpretation of the film that bears no relation to the actual film itself?
obviously not

The film is about Borat, not Cohen, or his "motives". What Cohen is or is doing - is irrelevant [he doesn't even exist in public]; you're searching for some imagined private real "identity" at variance with the very public Borat character in order to redeem and justify Borat. [The usual empty defence: "Oh, in private, in 'the real world' he's really a very nice and generous and reasonable guy"; which then begs the question "So why then is he such a racist asshole in public, both diagetically and non-diagetically?"]. The biggest assholes in history have always been defended this way. For those both featuring in and watching the film, it is Borat who exists, not some imagined behind-the-scenes Cohen ...
I can't watch a film and truly supend my disbelief. They are just characters on a screen. That they may be racist characters doesn't neccessarily reflect the attitude of the actor playing the role or are we to assume from this character that cohen is a racist then ?
So, being a fiction and all, it therefore doesn't purport to portray the realities of racism either, all the film's characters being fictional an' all?
exactly it is a movie and for whatever made it to the screen there would have been a hell of a lot more boring and mundane shit that didn't. The point is to entertain and contribute to the studios bottom line. Like reality TV. It's not so much reality as it is television. Many contestants who should probably win reality gameshows like 'the apprentice' get cut simply cos they are boring and don't make good television. Likewise those who made the cut here. If Cohen is as clever as i think he might be then he knew the reactions both pro and con he would get from every carefully crafted piece, character and ensuing media analysis.


are we to take it that those watching the Borat film are systematically stupid and therefore need to be spoon-fed reminded about the film's shock-horror racist exposes?
yes. Often times it is easier to assume your audience is stupid so by all means spoon feed them. How many movies with glaring plot inconsistencies do we see. 4/5 I'd say.

Why should any of us be SHOCKED to "learn" that jocks and frat boys and rednecks are racist?
because some of us dont know any.


Really, there is nothing in this film that is being newly shock-horror 'exposed'; rather, as previously argued, it is all too obvious that such 'exposure' is actually the weakest, the shallowist of justifications for Borat to freely plaster all of his film with the most predictable of racist indulgence. So who does the film benefit, who is it supposed to be
informing? The rednecks [who won't be watching it, presumably]?
the film benefits the studio and cohen and informs the public that he is a funny guy who isn't afraid to use racism to highlight racism.
 
I can't watch a film and truly supend my disbelief. They are just characters on a screen.

But you've no problem doing so when you leave the cinema?


That they may be racist characters doesn't neccessarily reflect the attitude of the actor playing the role or are we to assume from this character that cohen is a racist then ?

Once again, you are attempting to introduce (the extra-ideological category of) "the actor" and with appropriate fantasmatic attributes in order to legitimise the Borat character's racism. As I said, Cohen is irrelevant to any interpretation of the film, to what we actually see on the screen. But this is your own fantasy construction, attributing "intentions" to some imaginary interpretation of Cohen who you then label as [the real] "Cohen". Again, Cohen is nowhere to be seen, either on-screen or off-screen. And nowhere do we see Borat decrying intolerance or racism, but instead wallowing in it.

The point is to entertain and contribute to the studios bottom line.

Racism is good when its entertaining and financially lucrative.

Often times it is easier to assume your audience is stupid so by all means spoon feed them.

As you like movies to assume you're stupid, better bring your favourite spoon next time.


... a funny guy who isn't afraid to use racism to highlight racism.

I think this says it all really. [The BNP could certainly learn a thing or two from Borat, then, obviously].
 
Have you ever heard it said that there is no such thing as an anti-war movie? That by its very nature, film as a medium is so powerfully a function of its own very deliberate staging that there is no way to depict war (or rape, or maybe racism) in a way that is not a glamorization, or in a way that does not feed the very thing you're trying to pose as problematic. The problem is, for example, when Jodie Foster in The Accused was raped, there was far more getting off on that for the audience than anyone would acknowledge. I remember someone talking about how pissed they were when they watched that movie, did not at all leave feeling self-righteous about having watched something harrowing, but left disturbed by the blatant eroticism of the rape, then searched the terms on google and came up with STILLS from the rape scene that were labeled "Jodie Foster naked!! Hott!!"

I hear this sentiment repeated all the time, and especially from the pro-war Right and the pro-war Left. And it doesn't help when we hear the "intentions" of supposedly anti-war film-makers justifying their pro-war narratives as really being anti-war - many Vietnam movies, among countless others, are especially guilty here: Platoon, Apocalypse Now, The Deerhunter, films drowning in gliberal "anti-war" sentimental platitudes while oh so on-screen explicitly and thrillingly glorifying the gratuitous violence of that war ... but this problematic of interpretation is hardly just confined to film, but to all media and texts, all of which are a quagmire of conflicting interpretations and libidinal affects (from the Bible to the music of Wagner); and much worse than this is to succumb to the pomo deconstructivist temptation of resigning oneself to the conformist-nihilist "everything is just a matter of, is mere, interpretation and representation", so depoliticising all social reality for the easy benefit, and smooth perpetuation, of the (consumerist) status quo.

What all this is attempting to demonstrate is that textual interpretation, along with actual social "reality," is a social construct, is a political determination. Denying this, "diavowing" it ("Everything is just a matter of mere opinion, so I'll not bother to express any, nor take anyone else's seriously") is the dominant contemporary pomo ideology at its core, is just what it demands, enabling it to reproduce and multiply itself without any serious challenge.

Many would say that there's something about the way images work that is such that all war, all rape, all depictions of violence, are going to have an erotic charge. This is something that has always been a huuuge discussion point among my classmates and I've had to search very hard to decide whether I agree. But I think this is part of the principle the anti-Borat camp are employing.

No, its the excuse the pro-Borat camp are using to justify the [comically charged] racism; it is to mistakenly reason that, as all depictions of violence and rape, etc., are libidinally arousing, therefore we should dispense with all morality and politics and ethical commitment and simply (fetishistically) embrace all our irrational unconscious desires to voyeuristically and uncritically consume all manner of violent, pornographic imagery. while conveniently forgetting how such "desires" are socially constructed and conditioned.

As you say, "I'm trying not to get involved in this discussion because I will have to see it rehashed in so many classes" - but aloof, non-committal procrastination doesn't obliterate away belief into the permanent skeptical, it simply disavows it, while the underlying belief, of course, always-already remains fully intact ...

BTW, whoever claimed that The Accused was anti-rape?? Hollywood movies like The Accused want it both ways: because you know that you are covered or absolved from any guilty or voyeuristic impulses by the official narrative trajectory and story line (the big Other of the Law ultimately prevailing at the film's end, the symbolic order and patriarchal authority re-affirmed), you are allowed to fully indulge in dirty fantasies - of explicit rape and violence etc - which do not count in the eyes of society (the big Other). Here, there is no need even to consider TWO spectators [the self-righteous versus the voyeuristic one] – one and the same spectator can be simultaneously split into two. So the depiction of the rape in The Accused is not for the conscientous "benefit" of the big Other of law and order, but for our dirty fantasmatic imagination.
 

D84

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by the undisputed truth View Post
... a funny guy who isn't afraid to use racism to highlight racism.
I think this says it all really. [The BNP could certainly learn a thing or two from Borat, then, obviously].
But but isn't A Clockwork Orange a film about violence that depicts violence and even "glorifies" it in some way.

Is anyone going to boycott that film because the main character, albeit somewhat sympathetically portrayed in some scenes, is a nasty shit?

Doesn't that film use violence to discuss violence in our society?

On the other hand, I have to admit the difference might be really obvious to me if I'd actually seen Borat... :eek:
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Looks like British people finally have their "South Park." This discourse is so not fresh to an American that I guess it's hard to commit to a "side" here. It happens across our media and has for a long time, this sort of crassness.

By the way, I agreed with you, Hundredmillion. Part of why I abstain from passing judgment is because I haven't seen Borat and I don't really want to give them box office satisfaction, so I'll wait till it's released for Netflix. I guess a lot gets lost here in my halfassedness. But in the end, I'm not a structuralist at all, as you can probably tell by my name, so it is probably pointless for me to argue about particulars.


P.S. AMERICANs thought The Accused was anti-rape. They made it for those purposes, people bought into the idea they were being educated in the horrors ofr ape by it. Maybe the top most educated people in the worl d knew better buatr your average American d oesn't.
 
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