"Sampledelia"

[daddek]

there's an intro on an UNKLE 12" where they've got an answerphone message from "Josh" (gotta be Shadow, right?) to James Lavelle where he's all "trip-hop, baby! trip-hop in '95!" so it's not like they weren't party to it to some extent....

"first came rock than rock went went pop now your living in the world of... triiip hop. trip hop baby, in 95 wreckin shit!!"

yeah that was a major lapse in judgement. To be fair, thats the only time ive heard shadow use it positively, he very soon detested it.

That was a heavy release btw. The UNKLE track was an amazing piece of experimental hip hop, and the Portishead remix was horrifically, soul crushingly dark.

 

[gek-opel]

There's no way Portishead aren't going to be extremely well critically re-appraised in the coming years, their shit still sounds fantastic, esp. their second album.

 

[elgato]

There's no way Portishead aren't going to be extremely well critically re-appraised in the coming years, their shit still sounds fantastic, esp. their second album.

no question, their music was, and continues to be, unbelievable

interestingly, i once read a very aggressively outspoken tirade from geoff barrow (i think) about "trip-hop" and how much he hated being associated with it.

thats the issue here really (imo), theres so much dross which came out that the true gems become almost indiscernable without the benefit of more distance

i still absolutely love massive attack's first two albums

 

[gek-opel]

There was a lot of stuff that tipped into downtempo dreck like Morcheeba, all tasteful rot, "real" instruments, "musicianship" etc etc. Its obvous why the scene ended up being badly tarnished. But Tricky, Portishead and Massive Attack will be amongst the things to be reclaimed from the 90s, no doubt about it, given that they were critically adored at the time, and shifted hip hop in skewed new song and sample directions. Interested to hear why you don't rate "Mezzanine"? The first four tracks off that especially struck me as being amongst their most consistent works.

 

[elgato]

Interested to hear why you don't rate "Mezzanine"? The first four tracks off that especially struck me as being amongst their most consistent works.

Apologies, i meant to include that, i always forget that Protection came second, which has never really grabbed me so much as Blue Lines and Mezzanine. Mezzanine is probably my favourite of their work

 

[gek-opel]

Yeah, protection seemed a bit directionless, although it contains some great individual moments, perhaps more of an EP than an album...

 

[bassnation]

Apologies, i meant to include that, i always forget that Protection came second, which has never really grabbed me so much as Blue Lines and Mezzanine. Mezzanine is probably my favourite of their work

i wasn't that keen on mezzanine. its one of those albums that i've grown to appreciate over time, but when it was intially released it seemed very dirgey compared to the others - also knowing that the other two had left probably coloured my perception. it seemed to have lost its reggae soundsystem vibe and was noticeably rockist.

protection always worked for me as a complete album - pretty much like every song on there, especially their version of spy glass. horace andys voice still sends shivers down my spine every time.

blue lines is good, but its also patchy in places. not really keen on things like the great wheel - although theres no doubt that it contains their best work.

 

[gek-opel]

I always thought of "Protection" as their dub album, or at least the dubby material on there is the best stuff by far. "Spy Glass" is fucking great, along with a handful of other tracks. But there's too many sketchy moments, or bland Tracey Thorne stuff (which sometimes works but not always)... and the live cover at the end? Never really worked out what to make of that!

Mezzanine features guitars, yes. But does that necessarily make it "rockist"? (in the meta understanding of rockism that can take into account any authenticity obsessed musical culture, eg- back-to-'88 style hip hop). It still seems pretty in-authentic, artificial, highly processed etc etc. It is a whiter album, that much is definitely true, but there is still a dub sense to the bass, and an almost post-Timbaland R'n'B feel to a lot of the drum programming.

 

[Slothrop]

Mezzanine features guitars, yes. But does that necessarily make it "rockist"? (in the meta understanding of rockism that can take into account any authenticity obsessed musical culture, eg- back-to-'88 style hip hop). It still seems pretty in-authentic, artificial, highly processed etc etc. It is a whiter album, that much is definitely true, but there is still a dub sense to the bass, and an almost post-Timbaland R'n'B feel to a lot of the drum programming.

I'd say it's definitely a more 'rockist' album - there are guitars and generally more of a 'live' sound, the arrangements are more complex, the rap vocals aren't so prominent, it's 'deeper' and darker than a lot of the early stuff. But that doesn't make it less good - rockism to me isn't a feature of the music but of the reception of the music, and in this case the music is spot on.

 

[noel emits]

More Rock-ish then.

 

[gek-opel]

Hmm. I always thought Rockism in its most fundamental sense related to authenticity, as evinced in the rock-fan or rock-critic's underlying critical conditions for what is an "acceptable" work or not, but such conditions can be extracted and applied to any genre with similar rules relating to "the real" and "the authentic".

So rock-ish then.

 

[Slothrop]

Hmm. I always thought Rockism in its most fundamental sense related to authenticity, as evinced in the rock-fan or rock-critic's underlying critical conditions for what is an "acceptable" work or not, but such conditions can be extracted and applied to any genre with similar rules relating to "the real" and "the authentic".

Yeah, but I thought that the point wasn't that people have realized that actually authenticity is a bad thing, more that the lack of authenticity isn't neccessarily a bad thing. So the fact that Mezzanine can be seen as 'authentic', 'serious', 'artistic', 'deeply personal,' 'musicianly' and so on doesn't mean it's a worse album, just that some people are going to think that it's a better album for the wrong reasons.

 

[Slothrop]

in the meta understanding of rockism that can take into account any authenticity obsessed musical culture, eg- back-to-'88 style hip hop.

Actually, thinking about this is tying my head in knots - surely once you start complaining about 'authenticity obsessed cultures' as being a bastardization of 'the real thing' you've set up a new test of authenticity ie "I only listen to populist strains of hip hop because real hip hop doesn't strive for authenticity." (I'm not saying that this is the conclusion that you're taking it to, but some of the 'I hate backpackers' crew seem to.) Hmmm...

 

[noel emits]

Rockism I think can also involve a rock-esque (and therefore trad) approach to music consumption. So Massive Attack kind of invite or make easier a rockist reception to their stuff just by being album oriented and having 'name' guest vocalists and so on.

It doesn't matter though.

 

[gek-opel]

Actually, thinking about this is tying my head in knots - surely once you start complaining about 'authenticity obsessed cultures' as being a bastardization of 'the real thing' you've set up a new test of authenticity ie "I only listen to populist strains of hip hop because real hip hop doesn't strive for authenticity." (I'm not saying that this is the conclusion that you're taking it to, but some of the 'I hate backpackers' crew seem to.) Hmmm...

The whole point of anti-rockism is to move the debate away from authenticity in any terms. So therefore its not that the anti-rockist would think that listening to comercial hip hop is more "authentic" than backpack indie-hiphop stuff (although I am sure that some do think in that way) but rather that if the only claim which backpack fodder can make to achievement is that it is "real", then that alone is not enough to merit it any attention. That there is no "real thing", I would say, is the whole point of anti-rockism.

 

[gek-opel]

Rockism I think can also involve a rock-esque (and therefore trad) approach to music consumption. So Massive Attack kind of invite or make easier a rockist reception to their stuff just by being album oriented and having 'name' guest vocalists and so on.

It doesn't matter though.

Yes, this is also true. But then again Massive Attack always took this route, it didn't exactly begin with Mezzanine. Is an album-orientated format innately rockist tho? Perhaps another word is needed, as this part is really about whether one views music as being ideally broken up into many incremental releases (ie 12" culture) or magnum opuses (eg- albums, symphonies etc).

 

[hamarplazt]

yeah req did some amazing stuff, but the opposite of smooth trip hoppy stuff, all the wires poking out, his album on warp is WELL overlooked.

Indeed, I've never been able to make up my mind which is his best, One or Sketchbook. Req should be the beginning of a new genre, not trip hop but post hop.

 

[michael]

Yeah, Req is one of those artists I was thinking of when I was saying how good I thought "trip-hop" was, and what I was thinking of is basically all slightly wonky re-jigging of the hip-hop template... It's a pity there's no agreed term to distinguish the muffled, scuffed, blunted business from the repackaged acid jazz.

With producers like Req and Vadim I was always unsure how much of their sound was just being absolutely crap producers, i.e. the "outsider artist" thing of thinking they were making something normal or straightforward, but due to whatever skewed vision / lack of means to achieve their aims they come out with this wonky shit.

It pains me that Vadim's getting most props now with his much more traditionally musical One Self project.

 

[LRJP!]

Req should be the beginning of a new genre, not trip hop but post hop.

I reckon there's a good chance of this as his records seemed to be consistently marked down and on big labels with good distribution; this affordability and accessibility could (hopefully) lead to an unexpectedly large influence on the up and coming... Actually typing that out, thinking about the sounds, i doubt it'll happen but it is a nice idea.

With producers like Req and Vadim I was always unsure how much of their sound was just being absolutely crap producers, i.e. the "outsider artist" thing of thinking they were making something normal or straightforward, but due to whatever skewed vision / lack of means to achieve their aims they come out with this wonky shit.

All that stoner (paint-addled? ) theory buried on the Req sleeves about time and texture and such suggests to me he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[bassnation]

All that stoner (paint-addled? ) theory buried on the Req sleeves about time and texture and such suggests to me he knew exactly what he was doing.

but does it matter even if he didn't? many producers talk of "happy accidents". maybe it doesn't lessen the impact even if the producer inadvertantly stumbled upon new ideas.