why do you think us dnb/grime/dubstep producers never quite get it right?

[dubble-u-c]

i guess the point is, if the cultural traits of the exporters doesnt match the importers, then to the former they'll never 'quite get it right' because they'll inevitably be some local influence or interpretation.

but hasn't it always been thus? one man's 'getting it's not quite right' is anothers' 'next step for the sound/scene etc' ie US garage -> uk garage or chicago house -> uk acid house/rave.

I agree as well.

That is exactly what is so interesting and fascinating to me about global riddim/bass/rhyme/song culture. The variations and hybridizations that result due to the inputs as transmuted via the perceptions and experiences of producers/dj's from different cultures and regions into the different structural blueprints that originate in different parts of the globe over time. Which as a result of "not getting it right" create different templates/forms. <<< --- I hope this makes sense.

It is a beautiful thing to see new hybrids arise in my mind.

For instance I would love to see Hyphy with greater subbass ala- dubstep. Or even grime mc's over hyphy beats. Even mc's like Turf talk and Keak Da Sneak rhyme over grime riddims.

I would also like to see a greater exchange between bay area producers and jamaican artists.

 

[wreckTech]

i think the term "get it right" suggests a prerequisite for the music to descend into the luxurious hottub of genrefication. if it doesn't sound enough like X or Y to you then don't think of it as X or Y...it'll be more fun to listen to.

granted, some producers start a song in the vein of 'oy this is gon be anotha bassbin rattla!' but i don't think stark, dtl, or mathhead begin their tracks with a genre in mind.

 

[owengriffiths]

When it comes to Dubstep & Grime, I think you need the likes of Drop The Lime, Starkey & Matthead to inject a bit of excitement into what can be at times slightly formulaic scenes(the over reliance on half step or 8 bit computer samples being the most obvious example). It would be nice to hear an American producer build tracks that replicate the London sound. But I'm perfectly happy with what I'm hearing now and there's no real reason for the above producers to conform to what's in fashion in London at the moment.

So seriously, in terms of Dubstep I don't think the Americans are always getting it wrong. Putting your own spin on things makes sense (although from all the stuff you lot have been saying about US D&B maybe I'm wrong!)


www.darksidesophistication.com Dubstep Community Blog launch article January 15th

www.myspace.com/owengriffithsbelfast

 

[SIZZLE]

Fuck 'getting it right'. Getting it wrong is a lot more fun and interesting. I've found that when making grime it's usually when I've been writing for a few days and decide to say 'fuck the formulas' and make a tune that I think is a bit weird but I want to make, that that can be what gets rated by the real grime heads more than the stuff I think is 'normal'. I figure because they're more excited by newness and whatever I'm doing as 'normal' is probably late by the time I'm ready with it or they hear it.

Also DTL and Math Head definitely don't claim to produce grime, although they play it a bit. We as New Yorkers will never produce real grime because we're not english, so what we do will always be 'NY Grime' or something else by a new name, which I'm quite happy with.

 

[BigPhillyBlunts]

Heyyyy...

I'm a Torontoian, who prefers hip hop (it's my favorite form of music). I've been into DnB since '95.

I prefer hard, energetic, dark jungle, styles. All I have to say is I don't know why you guys hate American DnB so much. Allot of what I heard from them sounds cool if you ask me.

You don't like there style? That's like me saying I don't like slow/unenergetic DnB, it's total garbage. Look I don't like that style, but I'm not going to say it's garbage, I'm sure there's plenty of people who like that style, so I won't call it garbage.

Why's US DnB this way? Because the US people prefer it this way, they created the demand for this style. The US producers are supplying the demand. One DJ I think y'all should check out is Conundrum (he's from Texas), he creates great mixes from great producers.

Music that doesn't have a variety of ever changing styles, dies quickly. Music that has variety stays popular. If DnB didn't have a variety of styles, it would be yesterdays music. Hip hop has been here for about 30 years, and has changed up about 10 different time. That's about once every 3-4 years, that's why it still is very popular.

Americans are known for changing things, this is because of what they call competition, to compete properly, you need something that is soemhow unique. Competition is the staple of American society, and that is what they are known best for.

Look, the US is usually the influencers, rather then the influenced. With hip hop, a music they invented (like most music forms), not one country on the planet was able to create an authentic unique style that was comparible, or better then the US style (especially the beat). At least they were able to create a style of DnB that is unique and comparible in quality to the Euro styles. Trust me, I love European DnB styles, I actually think they're tied, I can't say one is better than the other, US or European, I love both. All I know is America really sets, and defines music on the planet. DnB might be one of the exceptions, but you can't call there style garbage, or just wrong, because it's too unique for you. They are like the centre of creativity, somehow. I mean creativity as in most forms of creativity as a whole in general. You can't admit it out loud, but think about it inside for a second, you know I'm basically right, at least in creativity. My other points were important too, I'm telling you, DnB needs variety, and the US element is one form of variety that is unique, hate it or love, I will love (allot of) it either way.

Another thing I really like in US DnB that is really unique, and normal in US DnB, is the addition of samples from hip hop (and other American music forms), since the best hip hop is purely American (but I might change that, my beats are getting better and better... (I produce hip hop)), it fits right in perfectly.

Lastly, I do not care what anybody has to say, Grime is a terrible form of music, it doesn't even sound like music, it sounds too weird, and I don't care who makes it "right" or "wrong", it just sucks, period.

 

[DWD]

Yo! BigPhillyBlunts!

You know how it's almost impossible to identify remnants of food in a particularly consistent and well-turned stool? Well, I'm finding it similarly tough to pick out and comment on any individual passages from your post - it's just all shit, frankly.

 

[shudder]

Yo! BigPhillyBlunts!

You know how it's almost impossible to identify remnants of food in a particularly consistent and well-turned stool? Well, I'm finding it similarly tough to pick out and comment on any individual passages from your post - it's just all shit, frankly.

a bit harsh! I mean, I had a similar initial reaction, but dude does have a few good point. I mean, the US has clearly been crucial in terms of pop music innovation. That can't really be denied. And all kinds of american popular forms have become the template for a whole lot of pop music the world over. Also, his point about hip hop having been around for 30 years is kinda interesting, since the same can't really be said for jungle/dnb, which already seems kinda dead after only, what, 15 years?

Of course, there's lots of questionable stuff there too. Contrasting US w/ "european" dnb? Surely the relevant contrast is with the UK. And supply and demand as explanatory of the stylistic differences between US and UK dnb is not going to be sufficient. Oh, and I just noticed his comment about grime, and I no longer particularly want to defend him . Still, dude' from scarborough (not too far away)!

 

[nomadologist]

hm. this discussion seems off to me. it sounds a lot like middle school boys from the US arguing with second-formers (made this up--what is the real term?) from the UK about whether Sex Pistols and the UK punks "got it right." historically, the UK's borrowed a lot more from the US than vice versa, in terms of popular music. so i think it's especially interesting to think about an exception to that general rule. like grime or dnb and how american DJs would transform those genres.

in the end, it's americans who started rave/DJ culture back in detroit and chicago and NYC and philly so it's a matter of how zoomed in your lens is, kids.

 

[claphands]

http://senduit.com/9ec597
i say peep subhuman's recent mix for good north american shit and beyond

Haha, that's uhh not the right link.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/mw2ykw

 

[Guybrush]

All I know is America really sets, and defines music on the planet. DnB might be one of the exceptions, but you can't call there style garbage, or just wrong, because it's too unique for you. They are like the centre of creativity, somehow. I mean creativity as in most forms of creativity as a whole in general. You can't admit it out loud, but think about it inside for a second, you know I'm basically right, at least in creativity.

You would have to agree, wouldn’t you? The rest of the earth is merely playing catch-up.

 

[claphands]

Look I don't like that style, but I'm not going to say it's garbage, I'm sure there's plenty of people who like that style, so I won't call it garbage.
-----

Lastly, I do not care what anybody has to say, Grime is a terrible form of music, it doesn't even sound like music, it sounds too weird, and I don't care who makes it "right" or "wrong", it just sucks, period.

haha

 

[Guybrush]

Also, his point about hip hop having been around for 30 years is kinda interesting, since the same can't really be said for jungle/dnb, which already seems kinda dead after only, what, 15 years?

If we count from 1994 it’s 13 years, which would be the equivalence of hip-hop sometime in the early to mid 80s. A time when, from what I recall reading, that genre seemed to be in the doldrums too (do correct me if I’m mistaken).

 

[ripley]

hm. this discussion seems off to me. it sounds a lot like middle school boys from the US arguing with second-formers (made this up--what is the real term?) from the UK about whether Sex Pistols and the UK punks "got it right." historically, the UK's borrowed a lot more from the US than vice versa, in terms of popular music. so i think it's especially interesting to think about an exception to that general rule. like grime or dnb and how american DJs would transform those genres.

I don't think that's what most of this discussion has been about. Many folks have been discussing the problems with the idea of 'getting it right'

Also, arguing about who did what first is just a problematic as who got it right or wrong. What are we trying to argue when we argue about primacy?

setting the record straight? defending from criticism? validating certain groups?

and, phillyblunts: wuh.

just one point: you say lots of people like some subgenre of dnb so you won't criticize it, but then you say all grime is bad? so all you are really doing is saying which people you care about and which you don't. not so interesting. neither are blanket assertions about what is 'really american' -

are the blues all about competition? (hint: no.)

 

[mms]

best of luck in not quite getting it right i reckon.

if i hear another half step bassline wobbler or another mc going on about coming up in the game and getting paid and i wanna i wanna.. i'm gonna start praying for the thames to rise up.

the next step i think for dubstep anyway is to go global, there is little to stop this happening, apart from lack of participation and open mindedness, which is just dull. dunno about grime, you can hope tho.

 

[nomadologist]

ripley--totally understand your concerns with the primacy idea. i was using that idea (which I think is equally as dumb as the "getting it right" idea) to illustrate that there is no "right" way to do anything that supercedes all innovation--to believe that grime in the UK got it "right" in some way and everything made after it is "wrong" because it is not identical to UK grime is to believe that UK grime has some sort of primacy, right? silly, huh? This way of thinking is true only if you keep your historical endpoints pretty narrow. and I didn't think everyone was being middle school. I think you would probably guess who I meant.

that said, popular music did pick up the most ground the earliest in the U.S. but within popular music you have a lot of subtle distinctions to be made and details to keep in mind about different genres and artists, etc.

i don't like talking about music as one would sports, you know? i think that's what ends up happening when you talk about music gesturally, as if every piece of music is a "move" someone is making within a genre.

 

[turtles]

Though I agree that the whole "getting it right" thing is kinda BS, if you compare dnb/grime/dubstep to the current minimal house/techno scene, there is actually a very big difference in terms of people from different cultures "getting it". Though Germany is still the heart of the minimal scene, there are tons of Canadian, American, Chilean, French, British, Swedish etc etc etc producers and DJs who fit perfectly into the aesthetic, without any easy identifiers of nationality. It might, in fact, be one of the most completely global sounds around right now.

So compared to minimal, yes it does make sense to talk about dubstep/grime/dnb producers not quite "getting it" as they very clearly do get it for minimal. Is it just that one is "street" while the other pretty middle-class?

 

[BigPhillyBlunts]

Ok...

I'm sorry, you guys are right, I shouldn't hate on people choosing to like grime, 1 or 2 of my friends like it too. But I just can't stand grime, and that's my opinion, if you have a different one, that's cool with me. Although I might prefer hard, energetic, dark jungle, styles of DnB, I stiill don't really mind any other style of DnB. But personally I don't like any style of grime. But as I said, I'm one who beleives everybody has the right to have there own opinion.

I think everybody has there own tastes in music, no one can really say which subgenre/style of music is the best, everyone thinks differently. I wasn't trying to say a specific form of music is the best form ever made, I can't say that. There are so many types of music I don't like, but I can get along alright with anybody who listens to something I don't. In fact I hate rock, but I help my friend's band to record using my computer.

Oh yeah, I also like Toronto's (my city) scene. What I meant by European DnB was British (which usually is the best), and the rest of Europe (there is some DnB coming from other parts of Europe), I categorized it into one. British styles are really cool for sure. Other parts of Europe have some cool styles too, though.

And um, hip hop was basically officially born somewhere around '78 (or '79), and I heard clips of early DnB from '91 (go to this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drum_and_Bass), by '95 there was already a good jungle and 'rave' scene in Toronto (it got HUGE around '98-01, then died down, and seems to be getting popular agian right now), that's how I was introduced to it, from somebody who went to the clubs (I was 11). So DnB is really 16 years old, and 16 years after '78 is '94, when hip hop was really getting started, Pac n Biggie were getting popular. They called that time the golden age of hip hop, right now wer're in the silver age. For info on hip hop history go to here: http://www.b-boys.com/classic/hiphoptimeline.html. And the comment about hip hop changing 10 times (once every 3-4 years) is just my opinion, and it really seems to be true if you ever payed attention to hip hop. I know DnB will stay popular, and hope it gets very popular once again, DnB is a really good form of music.

I felt like I had to say that after reading your comments.

 

[daddek]

So compared to minimal, yes it does make sense to talk about dubstep/grime/dnb producers not quite "getting it" as they very clearly do get it for minimal. Is it just that one is "street" while the other pretty middle-class?

In a sense. I often think"street" music (such a shit term) tends to have certain focus, which the other lacks. Im using the term broadly, including reggae and hip hop as much as 'ardcore and punk. Middle class (.. fucking hate this termonology. its lazy) takes on these tend to be more floaty and wayward, and more open to drifting experimentation. While that can be great (there was massive student influence on jazz fusion and post punk, right?), but it does generally lack the original intensity, the original point of the music gradually dissapates. I mean m-ddle cl-ss / student artists tend to toy with music. It often serves a more vital function "on road".

This just a thought, not a concrete opinion. I can think of so many objections to that. And I think the british fascination with class is dumb.

 

[spotrusha]

yeah, minimal/experimental techno or microhouse and genres of that nature thrive on experimentation and it's more about the music and not about the style of the music (if that makes sense).
also, addressing people saying that they want dubstep to go global... am i the only one who doesn't want it to go global? haha as much as i don't want it to be true, dubstep is about to go through the same thing that drum n bass and uk garage went through in the last 10 years. i read an interview with el-b where he said something like once you're on that front page, that's like an expiration date on your head and i think he's right. one thing that makes dubstep so appealing is that it's it's own little scene. the guys who put on the biggest parties are the guys who put out the biggest tunes and things like that.

"Look, the US is usually the influencers, rather then the influenced. With hip hop, a music they invented (like most music forms), not one country on the planet was able to create an authentic unique style that was comparible, or better then the US style (especially the beat). "

this may be true in some aspects, but the uk had it's own counterculture way before the states with it's reggae/dub scene, mod, etc. one thing that comes to mind is when you see footage of the sex pistols first touring the states and they're playing to cowboys and shit.

 

[Blackdown]

i read an interview with el-b...

any idea which one and where?