War In Iran

[borderpolice]

I don't think either of us is holding either of those two as a model of an enlightened, progressive leader, but there's a big gap between that and being a murderous, mysogynistic religious lunatic.

Quick question: which government has killed more people in the last 5 years: the US/UK government or the Iranian goverment?

Which one has started more wars?

which one spends more on defense?

 

[vimothy]

what a dumb line of argument- because other countries act irrationally, we don't? tell that to the innocent people who have been shot because they're a) foreign b) bearded c) carrying a chair leg (take your pick), just to highlight one issue.

Nah, you're reading into what I said. I was just trying support Mr Tea's example and to say that the Iranian regime is more irrational than Western governments, not that western governments are paragons of rationality.

 

[matt b]

It's not like it's an illicit but tolerated police abuse, either - it's official policy.

in practice, is there much difference?

 

[vimothy]

what a dumb line of argument- because other countries act irrationally, we don't? tell that to the innocent people who have been shot because they're a) foreign b) bearded c) carrying a chair leg (take your pick), just to highlight one issue.

And furthermore: how big is the cohort you describe?

 

[vimothy]

in practice, is there much difference?

!!!

 

[crackerjack]

Quick question: which government has killed more people in the last 5 years: the US/UK government or the Iranian goverment?

Which one has started more wars?

which one spends more on defense?

Interesting question; given your eagerness to outsource agency, I assume you hold Iran responsible for the ongoing massacre of Sunnis by Shia death squads in Iraq, which could number anywhere between 10 and 100 a day.

 

[crackerjack]

in practice, is there much difference?

What kinda fuckery is this?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Quick question: which government has killed more people in the last 5 years: the US/UK government or the Iranian goverment?

Which one has started more wars?

which one spends more on defense?

Well at a conservative estimate Iran's ruling mullah's killed 30,000 political prisoners in 1988:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran

Bear in mind this isn't a war death toll, this is Iranians killed by Iranians.
I don't have the figures to hand for wars started by the US or UK.

 

[Mr. Tea]

in practice, is there much difference?

Of course there is! Jesus, let me put it this way: if you get beaten by a cop but that cop stands to be prosecuted if higher powers find out, OR if that cop's *job* to beat you and he gets a promotion for doing an outstanding job - that's two rather different political cultures at work, no?

 

[matt b]

What kinda fuckery is this?

you like swearing don't you?

if you're dead, you're dead.

as long as we can accept that the iranians, USA and the UK act irrationally on occasion, i'm happy

 

[Mr. Tea]

Interesting question; given your eagerness to outsource agency, I assume you hold Iran responsible for the ongoing massacre of Sunnis by Shia death squads in Iraq, which could number anywhere between 10 and 100 a day.

Not to mention Israelis killed by Hizbullah rockets, given that group's funding and support from Iran.

 

[borderpolice]

Interesting question; given your eagerness to outsource agency, I assume you hold Iran responsible for the ongoing massacre of Sunnis by Shia death squads in Iraq, which could number anywhere between 10 and 100 a day.

I don't know. From here it is not possible to judge who's responsible for what. I have no reason to believe that you are in the position to do so either. We can discuss this matter when reliable information is available.

 

[matt b]

Of course there is! Jesus, let me put it this way: if you get beaten by a cop but that cop stands to be prosecuted if higher powers find out, OR if that cop's *job* to beat you and he gets a promotion for doing an outstanding job - that's two rather different political cultures at work, no?

they don't get prosecuted and carry on working as they were- little difference in practice

 

[Mr. Tea]

they don't get prosecuted and carry on working as they were- little difference in practice

What? Policemen (in the UK, anyway) have been disciplined for use of 'excessive force' now and then, it makes the papers. There are very stringent rules for their treatment of suspects.

Put it this way, I'd rather be a convicted murderer in London than a suspected pickpocket in Tehran.

 

[crackerjack]

you like swearing don't you?

if you're dead, you're dead.

as long as we can accept that the iranians, USA and the UK act irrationally on occasion, i'm happy

Yes, I do, as you do too (wasn't it you calling me a lying cunt last time i was round here?)

Well gee, doctor, thanks for that. And if it's goverment policy to kill people women for adultery there are likely to be a lot more dead people around than if it's not.

Then you're very easily pleased. Since only an idiot would deny that the truth of it, i'm not really sure what your point is. Wouldn't the best policy be to support those who act least irrationally and the least often?

 

[Mr. Tea]

I don't know. From here it is not possible to judge who's responsible for what. I have no reason to believe that you are in the position to do so either. We can discuss this matter when reliable information is available.

Yet you seem perfectly happy to blame the US squarely for the Iran/Iraq war...

 

[matt b]

What? Policemen (in the UK, anyway) have been disciplined for use of 'excessive force' now and then, it makes the papers. There are very stringent rules for their treatment of suspects.

very, very, very, very rarely are the police found guilty

Put it this way, I'd rather be a convicted murderer in London than a suspected pickpocket in Tehran.

obv.

 

[vimothy]

Hark, what light through yonder ...

obv.

Difference?

 

[matt b]

Yes, I do, as you do too (wasn't it you calling me a lying cunt last time i was round here?)

Well gee, doctor, thanks for that. And if it's goverment policy to kill people women for adultery there are likely to be a lot more dead people around than if it's not.

Then you're very easily pleased. Since only an idiot would deny that the truth of it, i'm not really sure what your point is. Wouldn't the best policy be to support those who act least irrationally and the least often?

that's because you were lying.

i was questioning your slightly sloppy argument, but we've sorted that.

i'd argue that the iranians desire (if it exists) to get nuclear weapons is entirely rational given whats been going on in that part of the world for the past 30 years- compare w/n.korea who have been treated very politely by the USA, mainly because they do have nuclear weapons

 

[Mr. Tea]

very, very, very, very rarely are the police found guilty

Hopefully that's because they don't go around beating up suspects all the time.
My girlfriend was a copper for a while, she's told me about this and there are all sorts of guidelines that they have to be very careful about. Much less so in America, it would seem.