Just what the hell's going on in London?
- Thread starter Mr. Tea
- Start date
N
nomadologist
Guest
oh my god...that's...ridiculous...
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Not quite, but it's misleading to think these kids are growing up in Dickensian conditions.
The UK has free universal eduacation up to 18 (compulsory until 16), there are all sorts of schemes and initiatives to try and help kids get some kind of post-school education or training (not necessarily through university, despite the government's misguided attempts to get 50% of school leavers to go there) and unemployment is historically low.
I think the biggest problem is the gap between the lifestyles kids (boys especially) from this background aspire to - fast cars, flash women and designer clothes, courtesy of MTV etc. etc. - and the reality of a reasonable though unostentatious lifestyle they could afford through going to school and getting a normal job. Working in Curry's or as an office junior doesn't buy you much bling.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Welcome to tabloidocracy...
Diggedy Derek
Stray Dog
It's worth noting that this story may well be urban myth. If you can find a news story detailing exactly what happaned at such an incident in question, do post it, but it's hard to find evidence that this actually happened.
The BBC investigated it once, I think, and found one bit of graffiti outside a paedetrician's home. That could have been one braindead teenager, which hardly amounts to an angry mob. Basically, it's not clear this "ruckus" ever happened.
Diggedy Derek
Stray Dog
Sorry, I was a little vague in my post. I meant to say that there's a lack of concrete evidence of actual incidents of paediatricians being hounded from there homes.
Of course there's evidence of a paediatrician getting stupid graffiti-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/901723.stm
and evidence of mob violence against suspected paedophiles-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/865289.stm
... but no real evidence of the two combined, ie mass mobs besieging the homes of paediatricians suspecting them to be paedophiles. Which seems like an important distinction to me.
Of course there's appalling tabloid hysteria, but I think it's wrong to assume that there was mass victimisation of paedatricians or anything.
Of course there's evidence of a paediatrician getting stupid graffiti-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/901723.stm
and evidence of mob violence against suspected paedophiles-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/865289.stm
... but no real evidence of the two combined, ie mass mobs besieging the homes of paediatricians suspecting them to be paedophiles. Which seems like an important distinction to me.
Of course there's appalling tabloid hysteria, but I think it's wrong to assume that there was mass victimisation of paedatricians or anything.
hundredmillionlifetimes
Banned
Mr. Tea said:
Resistance is futile ...
I'm wondering what this thread is supposed to be about, now that its moved onto:
nomadologist said:
Why just Mexico? Most [civilian] violence in the West also occurs in the bedroom, and most child abuse in the home (approx one-in-four children in the West will be/have been abused by a family member, whether parent/sibling/relative), so its hardly surprising that parent-based mobs will seek out a - more public - paedophile scapegoat ...
nomadologist said:
"Stupid and annoying", especially the oh-so-oironic metatextual ones, which as you say constitute "all of our commercials now." We call that cynical pomo disavowal, not "really" believing in what they are doing but doing it - even more effectively - nonetheless, just the ideal (self-distancing) precondition for the smooth, justified, and flawless operation of ideology.
matt b
Indexing all opinion
right, lets take a theoretical example of an average kid from an inner city council estate, and look at all the obstacles s/he must overcome in comparison to a middle class kid in order to get this future they want (and this is hugely simplified).
1. they are likely to go to a rubbish school, with poor GCSE pass rates (Less than a third of pupils left schools in deprived areas with five good GCSEs, compared to over half of pupils elsewhere, and pupils were twice as likely as those elsewhere to leave without any GCSEs at all.)
2. kids who are able in such schools are often left to do set work (with little extension) as teachers have to deal with more troublesome students- they are not pushed in the classroom in the way that middel class children often are.
3. peer group pressure may discourage a positive attitude towards learning (this also happens in many m.class schools, but other factors within and without the school are likely to negate it).
4. the domestic situation may be a negative factor for a whole range of reasons that are complex- w.class families have less cultural capital, find it harder to engage with the school, are less likely to have books in the house (an important factor, regardless of whether they're read), are less likely to understand the complex processes involved in getting children into good schools (see also middle class flight, making point 1. worse) etc. they may not have a quiet place to study.this has nothing to do with poor parents not caring, or focussing on 'bling'
5. lets assume the kid gets 5 GCSEs and wants to continue in education- s/he needs to apply to a college- local ones may not be the best, so they apply to one that has excellent results and gets in. they may then face subtle discrimination or stereotyping from teachers (most teachers in sixth form colleges will be aware of where their students came from) and peers, they may feel alienated and out of place- different language used in lessons, a different 'feel' to the learning environment. in addition, they may not be able to afford trips, extra resources etc that aid learning.
6. friends in their local area who are doing modern apprenticeships, or nothing put (subtle) pressure on the kid, so they may view what they have done in a negative light.
7. the student applies to university. as part of their selection process, universities look at GCSE results (on competitive courses this is the first thing they look at- to get onto a dentistry course, you need nealry all As at GCSE- two or more Bs, and you probably won't get an offer). due to the poor quality school they went to, the students GCSE results do not reflect their ability, or how well they are doing at A level. in many cases, this won't make a difference to the university.
8. the student gets a place at university, but the family baulks at £3000/year tuition fees, plus living costs (believe me, even if the student gets ALL the available grants, they're looking at £10,000 debt minimum)- traditionally, many w/c families are determined not to get into debt, let alone encourage it.
9. the student goes to university but has to work nearly full-time in order to fund their studies (if they go to a 'good' university- they could stay at home and go to the local ex-poly, which isn't very good, but is affordable).
10. after university the student applies for jobs. they won't have the advantage of family/friend connections, they won't be able to do unpaid internships and many firms with local knowldge discriminate against those from certtain postcodes.
in general middle class kids won't face any of those problems (they may work part-time at university)- they don't have to think about them, let alone overcome them.
assuming only poor kids have aspirations to nice cars etc is idiotic- they're just further away from getting them.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
"approx one-in-four children in the West will be/have been abused by a family member, whether parent/sibling/relative"
Really? Any figures to back that up?
According to nomad's apparently well-researched post, the 'victim rate' is something like 12 per 1,000 children, i.e. a fraction over 1%, and that's counting multiple cases of abuse or neglect on a single child as separate cases. One in four sounds ridiculously high.
Edit: and for the benefit of bazillionlifetimes - firstly, I posted those items in response to a specific question about whether or not something happened, and secondly you'll notice it was just a collection of links, rather than screens and screens of pasted text, which was my main gripe with your posts.
Really? Any figures to back that up?
According to nomad's apparently well-researched post, the 'victim rate' is something like 12 per 1,000 children, i.e. a fraction over 1%, and that's counting multiple cases of abuse or neglect on a single child as separate cases. One in four sounds ridiculously high.
Edit: and for the benefit of bazillionlifetimes - firstly, I posted those items in response to a specific question about whether or not something happened, and secondly you'll notice it was just a collection of links, rather than screens and screens of pasted text, which was my main gripe with your posts.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Matt, I agree with you entirely. I think we're arguing at cross-purposes here.
The cultural factors you talk about are exactly the sort of thing I've been trying to get at as well - for example, a lack of discipline in schools, fostered by a lack of stable home life, means the kids are disruptive, so the teachers have to spend all their time just trying to get the kids to sit still rather than actually having the chance to teach them anything, so the kids don't feel like they're getting anything out of being there, so they get disillusioned and disruptive, and so on - it's a vicious circle. The teachers are at their wits' end because there's nothing they can do about it, so they leave to teach at better schools or leave the profession altogether, so only the most hopeless teachers are left; another self-stoking cycle.
I suppose what I was saying is that it's not that educational opportunities aren't there, per se, it's that there are barriers to them, and that these barriers are unintentionally erected by the kids themselves, because of attitudes they've started to pick up even before they get to school.
The cultural factors you talk about are exactly the sort of thing I've been trying to get at as well - for example, a lack of discipline in schools, fostered by a lack of stable home life, means the kids are disruptive, so the teachers have to spend all their time just trying to get the kids to sit still rather than actually having the chance to teach them anything, so the kids don't feel like they're getting anything out of being there, so they get disillusioned and disruptive, and so on - it's a vicious circle. The teachers are at their wits' end because there's nothing they can do about it, so they leave to teach at better schools or leave the profession altogether, so only the most hopeless teachers are left; another self-stoking cycle.
I suppose what I was saying is that it's not that educational opportunities aren't there, per se, it's that there are barriers to them, and that these barriers are unintentionally erected by the kids themselves, because of attitudes they've started to pick up even before they get to school.
matt b
Indexing all opinion
this is where we differ, i think its much more due to structural barriers that are put in the way of kids- yes, thay CAN overcome them, but its often very difficult
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well who is putting the barriers there, then?
I'm saying that there is a whole culture, that involves the kids themselves and is perpetuated by them, that prevents many of them from getting an education and having any real career prospects. I'm not blaming them, because the culture is already there and it's all around them, so they can't help but feel its influence.
At the risk of sounding like a fuddy-duddy, I think the music they listen to is a part of it, while the easy availability of drugs (and guns) is obviously massively important, too. But isn't it the case that kids turn towards this lifestyle because they've already, in a sense, given up on themselves academically? Or is it the lure of the 'street' that turns them away from school in the first place?
I'm saying that there is a whole culture, that involves the kids themselves and is perpetuated by them, that prevents many of them from getting an education and having any real career prospects. I'm not blaming them, because the culture is already there and it's all around them, so they can't help but feel its influence.
At the risk of sounding like a fuddy-duddy, I think the music they listen to is a part of it, while the easy availability of drugs (and guns) is obviously massively important, too. But isn't it the case that kids turn towards this lifestyle because they've already, in a sense, given up on themselves academically? Or is it the lure of the 'street' that turns them away from school in the first place?
if you were growing up in that environment (slightly stupid imponderable) wouldn't selling drugs seem a more viable option than going to [shit university] and joining the lower middle class?
lots of priviledged white kids do the same, the difference being they can get out of it easily enough
lots of priviledged white kids do the same, the difference being they can get out of it easily enough
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
that is not the implication of what i wrote, although coincidentally i would sort of agree with it
there are 15yr olds who can get £200 a day selling drugs, how can you convince someone to forgo that in favour of the possibility of lower middle class wage serfdom in the future, however much that appeals to you?
there are 15yr olds who can get £200 a day selling drugs, how can you convince someone to forgo that in favour of the possibility of lower middle class wage serfdom in the future, however much that appeals to you?
N
nomadologist
Guest
remember that weird Eastern European guy who got caught having kept a few women prisoner in a tiny "dungeon"? they caught 3 or 4 guys who did that in America in the 80s and 90s, and some of them had victimized over 10 women. one guy was going by race, picking one girl per race, and even got a native american girl. i remember watching a TV show about it, and when one of the girls was finally returned to her parents home (he had forced her to write letters to her parents saying she'd run away to go to rehab in another state, and she'd found a husband or something...), the police didn't believe her story and wouldn't look for the guy. she spent years trying to convince him, but it wasn't till his black victim managed to find a payphone during a trip to the store where he left her unsupervised to go to the bathroom that a victim escaped and could ID him.
it was nuts. people are nuts. i can understand getting annoyed because in the U.S. law enforcement isn't exactly vigilant about trying to prevent this stuff...
it was nuts. people are nuts. i can understand getting annoyed because in the U.S. law enforcement isn't exactly vigilant about trying to prevent this stuff...