hadouken / problem of appropriation / hot topic MERGED

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Woebot

Well-known member
Hadouken came out in Old Street on some faux-indie label I have never heard of and get write ups in the NME and from Jo Whiley..

yeah but i hope you aren't knocking the indie thing per se logan?

the new arctic monkeys single has dizzee rascal on it hasnt it? i mean i think that's got be a good thing hasnt it? totally unexpected grindie isnt it? got to be good for grime surely?

i havent heard hadouken but i certainly dont have any problem with them....
 

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
Good for Grime how? They are marketed as "Nu-Rave", there is no re-direction of listeners to follow up their new found love of Hadouken by checking out the Grime scene.
 

sodiumnightlife

Sweet Virginia
thought this was classic. Someone I know was like "yeh getting into grime a bit actually" "oh yeh, who you liking?" "hadouken." I laughed so hard it was incredibly rude.
 

mms

sometimes
nearly ten pages now about how unfair it is that hadouken has success with "stealing" grime. Get real, the main reason grime hasnt had lasting success is that the artists all wanted "the majors" to pay them ridiculous sums of money for record deals (including compenations "for years of grafting") and asked huge amounts for appearances (i remember older posts about people trying to bring together some grime events in the states). Also, from what i hear and read they are very hard to contact and very unreliable (all those people who will have their mixtape/album out next week, month, year, decade).

be glad somebody like hadouken even references grime, befor it is really dead and buried.

all this pointing to the majors, the police, the clubs, the radio, sov, hadouken as culprits for grime's failure to score big time is pathetic and getting really old. Grow up and build your own success, dont complain about those other meanies

this simply isn't true and we've been pointing towards boy better know and jme, who have tried to do exactly what you've said .
 

Immryr

Well-known member
as much as i love grime, ive never liked JME. i like some of his older productions; skate park, meridian walk rmx etc, but his MCing just makes me cringe. i dont find it that hard to see why he hasnt blown up to be honest.
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
i dunno why you get so annoyed about this, mate...
i'm not entirely sure what your point is, but it would be be better made if you didn't come out with metaphorical fists swinging every single post.
 

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
Polz... what are you suggesting?

You contradicted yourself about 5 times without proffering an actual suggestion to solve the issue of Grime music being ripped off, labelled something else and sold on without any recognition for the pioneers of the sound.....
 

mms

sometimes
why is this simply not true? what i read in this and other threads is complaints about hadouken, nme, the media in general saying grime =violence, the police closing grime events, what not.

so hadouken ripped of jme. Use that, like stetsasonic said: "james brown was old till eric and ra came out with i got soul". use the hostile environment to your advantage. (hiphop got really big with white suburban kids because of its "dangerous" gangsta image), dont complain like a little kid who doenst get what it wants

again this really hasn't happened, there hasn't been any pointing out other people towards grime's lack of popularity, i think this site is very realistic and discursive, although i'm sure you would agree that lawmaking that doesn't allow grime to be heard live is going to have a significant affect on a musical culture, (which was information that came from a very well researched piece in time out)

and the stetsasonic quote is well off the mark really.
 
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straight

wings cru
i was chattin to a mate about working with a lot of rappers (he runs a production outfit, does a lot of tracks and vids etc) last week and he mentioned how of a logistical nightmare it is to get young mcs to do any real work, a lot of them cant get past the fact that you have to work your arse off for fame/cash. because its a hobby they get pissy as soon as it starts getting hard work and indie bands tend to recognise that you have to work gutter venues every night to build a rep. how many grime crews will play 5 gigs a week chasin a deal? and the crew mentality makes a mess of things too as theres always hangers on and fuckin about. the successful grime heads are the ones with a serious work ethic.
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
james brown was old hat in 1988, grime is in 2007 (maybe not with dissensians, but with all other people it is)

james brown got popular again after hiphop referenced it. Let's hope grime gets popular (again?) as well after hadouken referenced it.

That Hadouken! guy as the new Rakim. Well, why not? ;)
 

sodiumnightlife

Sweet Virginia
all this pointing to the majors, the police, the clubs, the radio, sov, hadouken as culprits for grime's failure to score big time is pathetic and getting really old. Grow up and build your own success, dont complain about those other meanies

no ones blaming hadouken for killing grime cos they haven't/couldn't and grime isn't dead anyhow. So some people might be unreliable, but when people start to see the benefits JME reaps (as i'm sure he will) they'll follow.
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
i was chattin to a mate about working with a lot of rappers (he runs a production outfit, does a lot of tracks and vids etc) last week and he mentioned how of a logistical nightmare it is to get young mcs to do any real work, a lot of them cant get past the fact that you have to work your arse off for fame/cash. because its a hobby they get pissy as soon as it starts getting hard work and indie bands tend to recognise that you have to work gutter venues every night to build a rep. how many grime crews will play 5 gigs a week chasin a deal? and the crew mentality makes a mess of things too as theres always hangers on and fuckin about. the successful grime heads are the ones with a serious work ethic.


these are all really good points, but not entirely comfortable to discuss and something we need to be careful with.
from my own personal, practical perspective, as a writer who spends a lot of time covering the work of and talking to jamaican artists, a group with a terrible rep for reliability, most grime artists are far and away worse to deal with.
that's the reality of it and there's no real getting away from the fact, no matter how much i'd like to. what problematises discussions of this kind, though, is that you get into issues of representation when you start making blanket statements about the reliability, work ethics, understanding of business and suchlike of certain groups of people.
yes, these perceptions are partly deserved in a number of cases but when applied in a non-specific way they become dangerously close to the kind of racist/class-prejudiced stereotypes that i'm not at all easy with.
now, i'm not accusing anyone of anything here, but these things really have to be judged on a case by case basis and sweeping condemnations not hurled around on the internet too much, otherwise they become accepted as truth.
plenty of grime MCs, dancehall deejays and rappers are highly motivated, intelligent individuals who want success and who are prepared to work for it, many are also people who just love music and are going to continue making it, regardless of whether that success comes. some are lazy bastards, but i'd place bets that a fair proportion of us have days where we can't be arsed, too, so i'd be careful before applying that to a whole subculture.
the major issue here is not of grime artists being unwilling to do the work, it's of the scene being chaotic and disorganised, with what are in my experience some of the worst managers in the world involved. this is where established organisations (the arts council etc), labels, booking agents, management companies etc need to step their game up. the talent is there, but it needs nurturing and pushing in the right direction and it needs to learn how to survive outside of its own neigbourhood if it wants success. you're unlikely to get the right doors opened, the right advice as to what to do if they are, how to handle your finances etc if your manager is your best mate from school with no understanding of the industry.
sure, it's a gamble to invest time and money in a scene that has only produced one real album of note in 5 years or so, but it's one worth taking as far as i'm concerned, especially if you can do it with bands hadouken, who are also pretty unproven.
the problem is that hip young white guitar bands are *seen* as being willing to work, where young black and/or working-class MCs/producers from the inner cities working within a certain idiom are *seen* as not.
these misconceptions need to be broken down and proven wrong, and that can happen, but the only way it will is for grime and the wider industry pull together and learn from each other.
 
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sodiumnightlife

Sweet Virginia
these are all really good points, but not entirely comfortable to discuss and something we need to be careful with.
from my own peronal, parctical perspective, as a writer who spends a lot of time covering the work of and talking to jamaican artists, a group have a terrible rep for reliability, most grime artists are far and away worse to deal with.
that's just the reality of it and there's no real getting away from the fact, no matter how much i'd like to. what problematises discussions of this kind, though, is that you get into issues of representation when you start making blanket statements about the reliability, work ethics, understanding of business and such like of certain groups of people. sure, these things are partly deserved in a number of cases but when applied in a non-specific way they become dangerously close to the kind of racist/class-prejudiced stereotypes that i'm not at all easy with.
now, i'm not accusing anyone of anything here, but these things really have to be judged on a cse by case basis on not hurled around on the internet too much, otherwise they become a accepted as truth. plenty of grime MCs, dancehall deejays and rappers are highly motivated, intelligent individuals who want success and are prepaperd to work for it, many are also people who just love music and are going to continue making it, regardless of whether that success comes. sure, some are lazy bastards, but i'd place bets the a fair proportion of us have days where we can't be arsed, too.
the major issue here is not of grime artists being unwilling to do the work, it's of the scene being chaotic and disorganised, with what are in my experience some of the worst managers in the world involved. this is where established organisations (the arts council etc), labels, booking agents, management companies etc need to step their game up. the talent is there, but it needs nurturing and pushing in the right direction and it needs to learn how to survive outside of its own neigbourhood if it wants success. you're unlikely to get the right doors opened, the right advice as to hat to do if they are, how to handle your finances etc if your manager is your best mate from school with no understanding of the industry.
sure, it's a gamble to invest time and money in a scene that has only produced one real album of note in 5 years or so, but it's one worth taking as far as i'm concerned, especially if you can do it with bands hadouken, who are also pretty unproven. the problem is that hip young white guitar bands are *seen* as being willing to work, where young black and/or working-class from the inner cities working in a certain idiom are *seen* as not.
these misconceptions need to be broken down and proven wrong and that can happen if grime and the wider industry pull together and learn from each other.



I think there's some excellent points in there - most people making music of any sort are generally quite young and have little experience of the workings of record labels, I mean, all the stuff you have to do in conjunction with getting a deal is so confusing. People who know how to work the industry are essentail for ANY act to come up. I think Logan has posted a couple of times about how the scene is getting more infrastructure, more organised releases etc. This can only be a good thing, as not only will it attract labels it will attract people who are good managers, who can help people come up.
 

elgato

I just dont know
about talking all that jazz

i think theres something in the analogy, but i dont think it carries the argument

that tune is also about reacting against established forces and structures in music - conservatism and orthodoxy, tastemakers and 'the establishment'. and hadouken are sadly representative of the assimilation of grime into a form more pallateable for the masses, by bringing it in line to a great degree with rock/indie orthodoxy - fusing it with an aesthetic and subject matter that more kids can understand

as to secret JME hating, ill happily say that i think JME is an incredible mc. his delivery and flow are (were) completely unique, his use of language and his presentation are like no other in their directness, and his lyrics are honest, intelligent, poetic and inspiring. and further to that hes completely unafraid of bucking trends and speaking his mind regardless of what his peers are saying
 

elgato

I just dont know
that was a sick post stelfox, wise words

does anyone know anything about how public funds are made available for initiatives to provide musical resources or platforms for poorer communities? its something i know next to nothing about
 

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
nearly ten pages now about how unfair it is that hadouken has success with "stealing" grime. Get real, the main reason grime hasnt had lasting success is that the artists all wanted "the majors" to pay them ridiculous sums of money for record deals (including compenations "for years of grafting") and asked huge amounts for appearances (i remember older posts about people trying to bring together some grime events in the states). Also, from what i hear and read they are very hard to contact and very unreliable (all those people who will have their mixtape/album out next week, month, year, decade).

be glad somebody like hadouken even references grime, befor it is really dead and buried.

all this pointing to the majors, the police, the clubs, the radio, sov, hadouken as culprits for grime's failure to score big time is pathetic and getting really old. Grow up and build your own success, dont complain about those other meanies

polz said:
why is this simply not true? what i read in this and other threads is complaints about hadouken, nme, the media in general saying grime =violence, the police closing grime events, what not.

So hadouken ripped of jme. Use that, like stetsasonic said: "james brown was old till eric and ra came out with i got soul". use the hostile environment to your advantage. (hiphop got really big with white suburban kids because of its "dangerous" gangsta image), dont complain like a little kid who doenst get what it wants

Asking huge sums for appearance fees? Maybe if you look to book someone in a major deal yes. Maybe if you look to book someone through elasticartists who are a very big agency. I personally play at Dirty Canvas for travel expenses. I did Love Music Hate Racism at Fabric for the same. As did ALL of the other artists who performed at those events. Is £40 a huge sum?

Also, from what you hear they are hard to contact and unreliable? Is this any different from any other musical genre? Bounty Killer just came over to do a show and didnt turn up to 3 separate magazine interviews because him and his manager went missing. I could reference the indie scene for unreliability but I would be here all day. The difference there is they have handlers.

In the same post you highlight the fact that grime = violence leads to events being locked off. Yet underneath it you say people should cash in on the gangster image? This country does not let people cash in on a gangster image. It shuts them down immediately. You can be a serial druggie who stumbles out of everywhere fucked off their face, or is such a prolific user that people can print running jokes about going to the toilets with spoons....and still make money. If you look like a thug you can't though.

It is not fair. I don't have to accept it. I can complain about it and I damn well will continue to do so until it changes. I won't just shrug my shoulders and idly shuffle onwards working for £40 bookings fees when someone who had ONE release in the Grime scene which wasn't even that good goes off, rebrands their shitty attempts at making Grime and gets embraced by the indie scene because they find the idea of Grime al terribly ironic. it is the same reason I hated most of Vice magazine's coverage of the music. It is the same reason I dislike all these old street and hoxton events. I will still turn up and play to these strangely dressed people who don't really love the music, but merely find it entertaining and amusing, because I appreciate actually having the chance to go out and play the stuff I love anywhere. It's great.

So yes, I do come across like that. If you don't like it feel free to complain, just as I do when I see people profiting from shitty imitations of the music I put a lot of work into.
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
i'd also like to say that the onus is on labels, agencies, the arts council etc, in what i said above, because the artists won't have the opportunity to show willing until they're given the chance.
and i can totally understand logan being pissed off, because other people are being given those chances right now.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
I will still turn up and play to these strangely dressed people who don't really love the music, but merely find it entertaining and amusing, because I appreciate actually having the chance to go out and play the stuff I love anywhere. It's great.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said, but it seems a bit harsh to judge whether or not other people truly love the music. Probably some of them don't maybe some of them do.

I think an important thing about 'ironic' appreciation of music is that it's very seldom about taking music that you don't enjoy and listening to it anyway to be ironic and take the piss out of it, it's more about taking music that you do enjoy but for one reason or another don't want to admit to being fully involved in, and using irony as an excuse to listen to it anyway. It's still a wank, but it's a bit less of a wank - it's still at least partly based on social prejudices but there's a chance that at least some people listening to stuff in an ironic fashion will admit to themselvs that they actually like it and fully involve themselves with the music rather than the whole thing just underlining their feeling of superiority.
 
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