the wire

mos dan

fact music
Originally Posted by derek walmsley on the wire blog

Walking out of Kode9's DJ set at the recent BLOC weekender in Norfolk, all of us there in The Wire's chalet were saying more or less the same thing- noone else plays the kind of music Kode9 currently plays out.

is it fair for me to suggest that, if this is somehow news to the folks at The Wire, then maybe they ought to get out a little more? this has been the case for years

sad to say (given they clearly have a number of very good writers) i've never bought a copy of the mag. it just seems too serious/academic/prog-jazz for my tastes. music mags should have a bit of vim and vigour, as well as a spark of intelligence.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Who else does what The Wire does though? Like K-Punk and Portishead* perhaps you just have to accept it on it's own terms, it is what it is. You can take the whole 'passion and personal response' thing too far - see Plan B in the early days (not read a recent one) :eek: Sorry if it offends anyone but I found a lot of what was in there really vile self obsessed tripe.

* I mean like K-Punk did not do with Portishead.
 
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ether

Well-known member
I'm glad somebody else picked up on the wires treatment of dubstep, i'd picked up a recent issue in a news agent and read an article on benga which seemed badly written and researched.

it seemed to infer that somehow 'night' had saved the dubstep scene from wobble heavy trite and impending obscurity.

come-on you can do better than this, lazy journalism.
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
er, so far no one has commented on anything i've written for the wire so this isn't me being touchy or unable to accept criticism, but can people please stop accusing writers of lazy journalism and lack of research, just because they don't agree with what a given critic has said. for a writer, that's pretty insulting and damning condemnation for a start. secondly, a lot of the people you are talking about happen to post here and will see what you say. if you really feel that strongly about it, then fine, say what you want. it's up to you. after the last freedom of speech debacle, far be it from me to tell you to do otherwise. if you're just blowing off steam in what you believe to be a consequence-free environment, though, i'd advise you to calm down a bit and think what you're saying before you commit it to writing, just as you're demanding of the writers in question.
 
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nomos

Administrator
Who else does what The Wire does though? Like K-Punk and Portishead* perhaps you just have to accept it on it's own terms, it is what it is.
yeah exactly. and they've been broadening out again in the last couple of years too thanks largely to people who post (or used to post) here - Derek on kode9, Wiley; Stelfox on Trim, Skull Disco, Flying Lotus; k-punk on UR, Burial; reviews by Eden and Silverdollar; and someone's got a Dexplicit piece this month. much more relevant than the warmed over "avant" that had become their bread and butter.
 

mos dan

fact music
Who else does what The Wire does though? Like K-Punk and Portishead* perhaps you just have to accept it on it's own terms, it is what it is. You can take the whole 'passion and personal response' thing too far

i agree absolutely - too much vim and vigour is just as bad as not enough of it. i only really read the observer food monthly these days though, so what do i know? ;)

that list of pieces sounds quite alluring nomos.. in the past i've just been scared off by cover stories on avant-garde jazz composers i've never heard of
 

vimothy

yurp
@stelfox: Ok, fair enough -- I had a subscription for years and always enjoyed having a brew, a listen to my free cd and a flick through the new issue when it arrived.

My antipathy to K-P's music writing notwithstanding, I think that my lack of interest in the Wire today has a lot more to do with the music than the writing. Whether it's London-centric "dance music" narcolepsy or home-made fiddle-diddle US noise, it all just seems so monumentally boring and pointless, I struggle to even pick up music magazines in the shops, let alone take them home and read them.

Sometimes music writing is cool -- Lester Bangs is great, and I really enjoyed "As Serious as Your Life" -- but, really, who wants to read about music? I'm going to die one day and I expect on my deathbed to regret spending so much time reading reviews of cds I never listened to...
 

bassnation

the abyss
Sometimes music writing is cool -- Lester Bangs is great, and I really enjoyed "As Serious as Your Life" -- but, really, who wants to read about music? I'm going to die one day and I expect on my deathbed to regret spending so much time reading reviews of cds I never listened to...

i quite enjoy it - got huge stacks of nme, sounds, select, mm when it was good. and now i spend most of my time on dissensus, or uk-dance.org or one of the many music blogs. i see it as an extension of being into music really, and not something to be worried about. most of the things i love in life could easily be construed as time wasting activities.
 

faustus

Well-known member
yeah exactly. and they've been broadening out again in the last couple of years too thanks largely to people who post (or used to post) here - Derek on kode9, Wiley; Stelfox on Trim, Skull Disco, Flying Lotus; k-punk on UR, Burial; reviews by Eden and Silverdollar; and someone's got a Dexplicit piece this month. much more relevant than the warmed over "avant" that had become their bread and butter.

don't get me wrong, the wire is the only music magazine with reviews worth reading, of the sort you've just mentioned. i still buy it, i'm not trying to stir up hating. i do find that the articles are much less interesting than the reviews tho :eek:
 

vimothy

yurp
i quite enjoy it - got huge stacks of nme, sounds, select, mm when it was good. and now i spend most of my time on dissensus, or uk-dance.org or one of the many music blogs. i see it as an extension of being into music really, and not something to be worried about. most of the things i love in life could easily be construed as time wasting activities.

Probably the time-wasting angle is too pompous to worry about (it's all time-wasting from the right perspective), but I think I've spent enough time reading and talking about music (not to mention listening to it) to be pretty exhausted with the whole thing. It's not as exciting as it once was.
 

aMinadaB

Well-known member
er, so far no one has commented on anything i've written for the wire so this isn't me being touchy or unable to accept criticism, but can people please stop accusing writers of lazy journalism and lack of research, just because they don't agree with what a given critic has said. for a writer, that's pretty insulting and damning condemnation for a start.
Well first of all, I too write regularly on music (among other things) and am acutely aware of what is insulting or not, journalistic standards, and any number of other issues relevant to music writing -- and this is precisely why i think Fisher is a deeply flawed music writer.

I think that the Wire does a great job at what it does, I regularly buy it, and I am perfectly able to separate my own tastes and preferences from the goals of this particular music magazine: to complain about a magazine not covering one's own personal preferences would be pedantic in the extreme, that's certainly not why I revived this thread. I like the Wire, and, being a literate reader of the internet for a few years, I'm also perfectly well aware of the number of Dissensians who started writing for the Wire, and when, and I think it's great.

My complaints about Mark Fisher's writing are very much specific to his writing on music, which i find objectionable on many levels, and if you would me to articulate them in detail, the question becomes: how much time do you have?

The foremost problem is the pervasive and mind-numbingly snide, smug tone by which everything is discussed in an emotive, oh-let-me-unmask-the-motives-of-X-musician-aren't-i-clever-for-having-seen-through-the-hypocrisy tone. A tone of bitterness and superiority is evident over and over, and he very rarely engages in any kind of discussion of actual music.

And it's this subordination of music that's so troubling, ultimately music becomes a secondary vehicle, something he uses but doesn't really have an interest in discussing, in order to make his interminable complaints about the world around him in the UK. He's not a music writer at all, in my opinion, not even close, he's just using music to whack half-grasped theoretical ideas against a world where so many people have conspired against him to produce 'designer' culture or whatever.

You want examples, okay. Anyone who takes seriously, much less writes in public (!) about, the tired old notion of "The End of History" in the incredibly simplistic way that he does, is completely out of touch with changes occurring in the DNA of music technology, modes of production and reception, the proliferation of independent communities of creativity, not to mention the absolutely tidal changes occuring at a global level in terms of capital, production, technology, realignment of identities and modes of presenting them, and any host of other phenomena. There's no way one person could possibly track it all, much less give it a panoptic account, yet this guy glibly fastens on to the easiest cliches to hand ('music is stagnant,' 'capitalism has turned everything into a version of the same', 'it's the 'end' of history,' etc etc etc).

The world is changing at an incredible rate and there are many positive things happening, but also a vast surplus of evil, accumulation of power, and abuse. My point is that one must engage these changes by doing one's best to get the details as right as possible to begin with (whether it's writing on pop music, or critical theory, or contemporary politics, or whatever), and by paying attention to all the little potential resistance-worlds fulminating under the surface, NOT by turning into a bitter old cliche-peddling brand name .

I can't believe that other music writers don't feel the same way, or speak up about it.
 
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Ivan Conte

Wild Horses
Most of the articles nomos mentioned -Wiley, UR, Burial, etc- are actually among the best pieces of music journalism I read in 2007. The coverage of minimal techno is also worth praising. I can't wait to receive the new number and read the cover article on Wolfgang Voigt. Most of the articles on dubstep have been a bit disappointing so far, though.

IMO a magazine like The Wire is essential. The regrettable thing is that we now lack something like Melody Maker in its golden years but, you know, where else can you find nice and long -and yes, carefully written and well-documented- articles on Burial, Ricardo Villalobos or Henry Cow to name just a few recent examples? And were can you find something like the primer or the invisible jukebox? not to mention the exhaustive reviews section?

I also see writing about music as an extension of the way I experience music, it usually happens that thanks to a good article I come back to an album which I've heard too many times before, from a new, fresh perspective, and that's a real pleasure. I actually love to sit down and read a good piece of writing about music or a thread or a blog. I acutally used to have my own blog and my friends used to complain about the length of the posts, which was really frustrating :eek:
 

aMinadaB

Well-known member
IMO a magazine like The Wire is essential...where else can you find nice and long -and yes, carefully written and well-documented- articles on Burial, Ricardo Villalobos or Henry Cow to name just a few recent examples? And were can you find something like the primer or the invisible jukebox? not to mention the exhaustive reviews section?
I completey agree with you and am not afraid to admit it (and yes I do realize that bashing Wire magazine on music forums is a perennial commonplace, i just don't take that view)
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
Well first of all, I too write regularly on music (among other things) and am acutely aware of what is insulting or not, journalistic standards, and any number of other issues relevant to music writing -- and this is precisely why i think Fisher is a deeply flawed music writer.

I think that the Wire does a great job at what it does, I regularly buy it, and I am perfectly able to separate my own tastes and preferences from the goals of this particular music magazine: to complain about a magazine not covering one's own personal preferences would be pedantic in the extreme, that's certainly not why I revived this thread. I like the Wire, and, being a literate reader of the internet for a few years, I'm also perfectly well aware of the number of Dissensians who started writing for the Wire, and when, and I think it's great.

My complaints about Mark Fisher's writing are very much specific to his writing on music, which i find objectionable on many levels, and if you would me to articulate them in detail, the question becomes: how much time do you have?

The foremost problem is the pervasive and mind-numbingly snide, smug tone by which everything is discussed in an emotive, oh-let-me-unmask-the-motives-of-X-musician-aren't-i-clever-for-having-seen-through-the-hypocrisy tone. A tone of bitterness and superiority is evident over and over, and he very rarely engages in any kind of discussion of actual music.

And it's this subordination of music that's so troubling, ultimately music becomes a secondary vehicle, something he uses but doesn't really have an interest in discussing, in order to make his interminable complaints about the world around him in the UK. He's not a music writer at all, in my opinion, not even close, he's just using music to whack half-grasped theoretical ideas against a world where so many people have conspired against him to produce 'designer' culture or whatever.

You want examples, okay. Anyone who takes seriously, much less writes in public (!) about, the tired old notion of "The End of History" in the incredibly simplistic way that he does, is completely out of touch with changes occurring in the DNA of music technology, modes of production and reception, the proliferation of independent communities of creativity, not to mention the absolutely tidal changes occuring at a global level in terms of capital, production, technology, realignment of identities and modes of presenting them, and any host of other phenomena. There's no way one person could possibly track it all, much less give it a panoptic account, yet this guy glibly fastens on to the easiest cliches to hand ('music is stagnant,' 'capitalism has turned everything into a version of the same', 'it's the 'end' of history,' etc etc etc).

The world is changing at an incredible rate and there are many positive things happening, but also a vast surplus of evil, accumulation of power, and abuse. My point is that one must engage these changes by doing one's best to get the details as right as possible to begin with (whether it's writing on pop music, or critical theory, or contemporary politics, or whatever), and by paying attention to all the little potential resistance-worlds fulminating under the surface, NOT by turning into a bitter old cliche-peddling brand name .

I can't believe that other music writers don't feel the same way, or speak up about it.

i wasn't actually talking about you, but the advice to calm down still stands, especially after that post.

trust me, i never once asked for examples, but thanks for the lesson on the changing face of contemporary culture. not really needed, but hey...

for the record, mark's burial piece was also one of the best bits of music writing of the last year or two, imo, and i don't really see how any of the (pretty damning) complaints you've levelled above can be made to apply to it at all.

i don't agree with plenty of writers and i know for a fact that plenty of people don't agree with me. i wouldn't say that someone wasn't a real writer just because i don't agree with them, though.

just out of curiosity who do you write for and under what name? it seems a bit unfair for people to criticise people's work while posting under an assumed name.
 
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slim jenkins

El Hombre Invisible
The first Wire I bought was the first one...so I watched it change from being Jazz-based to what it is now. Bought it regularly up until the late-90s then lost interest and lost touch with evolutions in the various musical strands to the point where I hardly recognise any of the names interviewed (or reviewed, for that matter!). Bought the last issue for the Hood interview and Burroughs review, though.

I used to go to their club night at The Spitz (and took part in one performance which they later included in their '50 Earth-Shattering Gigs' or whatever it was called - Wire, I love you - ;)) so the mag is part of my history and for that reason alone it has meaning for me.

Like all music mags it can only give us part of what we want. I'm actually amazed that it's still going and stocked in ordinary newsagents. Of course it can be pretentious and for my money lends too much credence sometimes to mediocre 'street sounds', but hey-ho, that's my personal gripe.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Maybe there should be a Mark Fisher thread for discussion of Mark Fisher? Then other writers for the Wire need not feel personally implicated.
 
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