"Chav - the Musical"

[Slothrop]

I guess what I'm saying is that people shouldn't have to fight an uphill battle to overcome the obstacles in front of them, but that doesn't mean it's entirely out of their hands.

But certainly the question to ask isn't "why aren't these lazy bastards struggling all their lives against all sorts of influences just to get to where other people have got to by working reasonably hard."

 

[nomadologist]

I guess what I'm saying is that people shouldn't have to fight an uphill battle to overcome the obstacles in front of them, but that doesn't mean it's entirely out of their hands.

But certainly the question to ask isn't "why aren't these lazy bastards struggling all their lives against all sorts of influences just to get to where other people have got to by working reasonably hard."

No, that's why people from the ghettoes and the projects here who are of exceptional ability and talent get out. That's the problem, though--the "average" black or hispanic or impoverished (just like the average white person) is not of exceptional ability or talent.

Culture can keep people resentful and make them not want to "work hard", but it has equal powers when it comes to shutting people out of opportunities and keeping racism alive so that all white women are afraid black men will rape them if they walk down the wrong street.

There's been years and years of culture devoted to cultivating fear in the hearts of the gatekeepers regarding minorities taking over, etc.

 

[swears]

The problem in the U.S. is that "sense" won't get you health benefits (I know people with MULTIPLE DEGREES who have no health benefits here), it won't get you an education loan so you can go to college, and even if you did get to college, college doesn't necessarily equate to an economic risk worth taking for many, many impoverished people here.

Class is a reality. You can't chalk up "class" to a cultural refusal to learn in school.

No, I understand that you can't simply expect people to automatically overcome all these social barriers, and I'm talking about the UK and not the US anyway. I'm saying that I'd like to see an end to the consumerist culture we have in the UK at the moment that suckers middle and working class people. But like I say, I'm not optimistic.

 

[nomadologist]

But that way of looking at it where (for instance) poor people who end up with drug problems have at no point made any choice that lead to this situation but have done so purely because they are driven to it by their surroundings seems to push you towards the idea that you have a division between the sheep like masses who are incapable of thinking or doing anything effective themselves, and independently thinking middle and upper classes who (thanks to their superior breeding, education etc) are making thought out and rational decisions

Not at all. People who talk about drugs being a blight of the lower classes are usually referring to the OMNIPRESENCE of drugs in certain neighborhoods (where, of course, it is worth the risk of going to jail to get the extra income drugs bring in--a pretty dire situation to begin with)--it's simply a matter of there being more drugs around for certain people, and therefore, it being much harder to resist the temptation of doing them.

Think about any movie about white kids doing drugs (i.e. Traffic)--what's the punchline? It's so horrible! My junkie daughter had to have sex with a black man to get dope. Or there's, even better, the "oh my god, my kid just drove to the black neighborhood to get crack!" punchline...

 

[Mr. Tea]

Mr. Tea did say that. Ask him.

It's not laziness per se, it's an anti-academic culture that gives rise to a hell of a lot of bullying and causes many kids to badly underperform at school. It's a vicious cirlce since kids that get drawn into that culture will then inflict it on others, making them simultaneous victims and perpetrators.

As far as I can see, there is no one good reason why being from a poor family, in and of itself, should cause kids to fail at school. In the UK, we have good, free state schools and free school meals and even uniforms for poorer kids, plus all sorts of schemes to help kids stay on in some sort of training or education after 16, and if you're really hard up you can still go to university without paying tuition fees.

I suppose what I'm saying is (the reversal of the historical trend of increasing social mobility notwithstanding) there is no Government Department Of Keeping The Rabble In Their Place, and that there are social phenomena that originate within working-class culture that are nothing to do with government and sometimes have self-defeating consequences.

 

[nomadologist]

It's not laziness per se, it's an anti-academic culture that gives rise to a hell of a lot of bullying and causes many kids to badly underperform at school. It's a vicious cirlce since kids that get drawn into that culture will then inflict it on others, making them simultaneous victims and perpetrators.

As far as I can see, there is no one good reason why being from a poor family, in and of itself, should cause kids to fail at school. In the UK, we have good, free state schools and free school meals and even uniforms for poorer kids, plus all sorts of schemes to help kids stay on in some sort of training or education after 16, and if you're really hard up you can still go to university without paying tuition fees.

I suppose what I'm saying is (the reversal of the historical trend of increasing social mobility notwithstanding) there is no Government Department Of Keeping The Rabble In Their Place, and that there are social phenomena that originate within working-class culture that are nothing to do with government and sometimes have self-defeating consequences.

But can school ever erase or make up for the atrocities a lot of kids are forced to live through at home? The problem with the public school system in the U.S. is that it can no longer keep up with the number of emotionally disturbed and otherwise abused and abusive children for long enough to get through an actual curriculum. School has become a convenient babysitter. And parents aren't doing anything to get their kids ready for school (if they're even feeding them in some places...)

 

[nomadologist]

I suppose what I'm saying is (the reversal of the historical trend of increasing social mobility notwithstanding) there is no Government Department Of Keeping The Rabble In Their Place, and that there are social phenomena that originate within working-class culture that are nothing to do with government and sometimes have self-defeating consequences.

well, the "apparatus" so to speak is hardly confined to government these days

p.s. jesus i wish my schooling had been free--over $200,000 and counting

 

[Mr. Tea]

Well obviously kids are at a terrible disadvantage - academically and in every other sense - from the outset if they've been neglected or abused, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say assume that ANY kid from a household with below-median income for the area is automatically in that situation. There are plenty of perfectly normal working-class families who live in ordinary houses with parents who have ordinary jobs, and I'm saying there is no inherent reason why kids from that background shouldn't do as well at school as kids from more middle-class backgrounds.

Unless you want to define middle-class-ness as "having books in your house rather than a big TV and lots of games consoles". Because books are a lot cheaper, when you get down to it.

 

[nomadologist]

Well obviously kids are at a terrible disadvantage - academically and in every other sense - from the outset if they've been neglected or abused, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say assume that ANY kid from a household with below-median income for the area is automatically in that situation. There are plenty of perfectly normal working-class families who live in ordinary houses with parents who have ordinary jobs, and I'm saying there is no inherent reason why kids from that background shouldn't do as well at school as kids from more middle-class backgrounds.

Unless you want to define middle-class-ness as "having books in your house rather than a big TV and lots of games consoles". Because books are a lot cheaper, when you get down to it.

You're right. But I think it's the wildly disadvantaged kids who probably skew the school experience for the rest, in terms of who uses the most teacher "resources."

 

[Electric Angel]

For me, comedy has few boundaries and this certainly isn't one of them in my opinion. I never see Johann Hari complain about Catherine Tate's sketch parodying middle-class snobs.

I can be incredibly snobbish at times, yes towards chavs but not towards the lower class, and one needs to distinguish between the two. Generally, I dislike the way chavs dress, I dislike their use of the English language and I dislike what they regard as acceptable behaviour. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule and I have some acquaintances who could be considered 'chavs' whom display less of the uncouth behavioural traits than a typical chav. Anyway, forgive me for being a snob but I have good reason to be.

 

[swears]

For me, comedy has few boundaries and this certainly isn't one of them in my opinion. I never see Johann Hari complain about Catherine Tate's sketch parodying middle-class snobs.

I would like to see some comedy that satirises the UK's class divides in clever, subtle ways. I think Martin Amis is good at finding humour in all sections of society from underclass dodgy-geezers to the spoilt-brat gentry, you need to give a little background to why people end up the way they do, without being too preachy about it. If somebody sets out to simply mock the poor for the sake of it, then that's just mean-spirited.

 

[Electric Angel]

Perhaps. Admittedly chavs are an easy target, but they wouldnt be so easily parodied if they stoped exhibiting behaviour that's well...so easily parodied. They're been parodied because their poor (contary to what Johann Hari would like us to think), they're being parodied because their behaviour is deemd to be humourous.

 

[Slothrop]

For me, comedy has few boundaries and this certainly isn't one of them in my opinion. I never see Johann Hari complain about Catherine Tate's sketch parodying middle-class snobs.

I can be incredibly snobbish at times, yes towards chavs but not towards the lower class, and one needs to distinguish between the two. Generally, I dislike the way chavs dress, I dislike their use of the English language and I dislike what they regard as acceptable behaviour. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule and I have some acquaintances who could be considered 'chavs' whom display less of the uncouth behavioural traits than a typical chav. Anyway, forgive me for being a snob but I have good reason to be.

The thing is, by the sounds of it this musical (and a lot of similar middle / upper class taking the piss out of chavs stuff) tend to a) conflate the behaviour with the economic class (oh, they live in a council flat, how very droll) and b) miss out on any sort of subtlety in the parody - it tends to be hours on end on "oh look at them - don't they look funny. Ha ha, I bet they talk funny too."

The sketches on CT taking the piss out of middle class snobs are about the only ones of hers that I find funny (and I am middle class), largely because CT is middle class herself and so has the 'inside knowledge' to produce comparatively finely drawn charicatures rather than just mocking stupid common people. That said, I have to admit to liking Lauren as a character...

 

[Electric Angel]

Lauren I must admit I find annoying because it's just a continuous catchprase, with little decorated around the plot to try and keep each Lauren sketch fresh, the exception being that with David Tennant.

I see what you say, and I'd agree to some extent but then I don't think paraody always needs to be subtle in order to be fun, and (stepping on controversial ground here) I wouldn't be surprised if a large proportion of those considered 'chavs' lived in council-owned properties, however I don't hold anything wrong with living in a council property.

I have not seen this musical so cannot possibly comment on its comedic value, but I don't think it should be demonised purely for its subject matter.

 

[vernoncrane]

"It's not laziness per se, it's an anti-academic culture that gives rise to a hell of a lot of bullying and causes many kids to badly underperform at school. It's a vicious cirlce since kids that get drawn into that culture will then inflict it on others, making them simultaneous victims and perpetrators"

but presumably you still hold it could be otherwise if the people involved were morally rigorous/ strong-willed/ tough-minded enough to step outside the circle, right? therefore it comes about through a failing on their part. Why don't they just refuse to be either victims or perpetrators and instead, like the heroically transcendent folk on this forum, take advantage of all the educational good stuff you have listed that has been provided for them......

so just out of curiosity......why is a chav a chav? By which I suppose we mean, why are the poor poor?

why ARE the poor poor, mr Tea?

 

[Slothrop]

but presumably you still hold it could be otherwise if the people involved were morally rigorous/ strong-willed/ tough-minded enough to step outside the circle, right? therefore it comes about through a failing on their part.

Sort of but not really. If you give someone a thirty second start on me in a mile run, then I could still beat them if I was much fitter and stronger and faster, but I wouldn't consider it a failing on my part if I didn't beat them.

Why don't they just refuse to be either victims or perpetrators and instead, like the heroically transcendent folk on this forum, take advantage of all the educational good stuff you have listed that has been provided for them......

Have you ever considered joining a high school debating society?

 

[swears]

This is pure Chris Morris:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/...tm&news=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1&nbwm=1&bbram=1&asb=1

 

[nomadologist]

Sort of but not really. If you give someone a thirty second start on me in a mile run, then I could still beat them if I was much fitter and stronger and faster, but I wouldn't consider it a failing on my part if I didn't beat them.


Have you ever considered joining a high school debating society?

What was wrong with what he said? I think he has a point.

 

[Mr. Tea]

why ARE the poor poor, mr Tea?

Well if we're still talking about the UK, they're not 'poor' at all, by standards that apply to 90% of the world's population.

As to why any given person isn't as wealthy as they might be, there are obviously a million and one possible reasons, some of which are going to be simple bad luck or due to some kind of social unfairness, others of which will be more or less the person's own fault. The same way some people make lots of money by being clever and hard-working while others inherit a fortune or win the lottery.

 

[Mr. Tea]

This is pure Chris Morris:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/...tm&news=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1&nbwm=1&bbram=1&asb=1

Ludicrous! One takes a nip of brandy before hunting, not champagne.

I bet it was Crystal. Fucking plebs.