global financial crash yay!

IdleRich

IdleRich
"I should ask Rich too, a real life ex-investment banker or something aren't you?"
I worked as a trader (and market maker) for a year or so but I quit in 2002 (after getting my, er, bonus). It wasn't an investment bank that I worked for but an independent company that traded its own money. Can't say I know too much about all this stuff but I guess that when RBS are saying that half of their bonus payout will be to honour promises that were made to ABN Amro staff before (I think) they were taken over by RBS then maybe that point has some force. Of course, on the other hand, you might argue that if the government hadn't stepped in to save RBS then they wouldn't have been capable of honouring those deals so what right have the company to insist on sticking to the pay scheme at the government's and tax payers' expense? I'm surprised that there wasn't some clause inserted at the time when government involvement began but I guess it was done in such a desperate hurry.
 

vimothy

yurp
(The important side question is, how legitimate were the profits? Were mid-level traders paid for actual realised profit or just for "imputed profit", i.e. profit on CDSes and other derivatives contracts that weren't concluded and seemed like they weren't under water. I don't have a good grasp of that. Vim? Rich?)

Just saw this in a post by Gary Posner -- sounds about right:

the problem of overcompensation in the banking industry is more serious at the trading level than at the senior management level, since it's the traders who make the transactions.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Were mid-level traders paid for actual realised profit or just for "imputed profit", i.e. profit on CDSes and other derivatives contracts that weren't concluded and seemed like they weren't under water. I don't have a good grasp of that. Vim? Rich?"
Dunno I'm afraid. But even supposing that bonuses were paid on real actual profit, the argument that successful (or even relatively successful) departments should receive a bonus even if the whole company made a loss - in fact made such a loss that it would no longer have been able to pay the bonus without public funds, still seems strange to me. Of course, that's bad luck for the departments that performed well but if their profits have been (more than) swallowed by another department's losses then that's tough titties. The company is a single entity which brings it many advantages but you can't suddenly claim your department is separate when it suits you.

"the problem of overcompensation in the banking industry is more serious at the trading level than at the senior management level, since it's the traders who make the transactions."
But it's the traders' management who decide what kind of trades they can do, what their size limits are etc and and they are answerable to senior managment. At least, that's how it was where I was working and that's how it ought to be as far as I can see. Also, management is responsible for risk, or at least creating a risk department which runs well. The days since nobody superior to him understood what Nick Leeson was doing ought to be long gone.
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
I don't think management did decide what their traders could do. Everything I've heard suggests that senior management often had little understanding of what their traders did. There's always been an agency risk problem in FS and the current crisis is just the biggest manifestation of it.

Esp when the credit rating agencies were knee deep in moral hazard, making so much from rating fees that there was no way they could stop the merry go round.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"I don't think management did decide what their traders could do. Everything I've heard suggests that senior management often had little understanding of what their traders did. There's always been an agency risk problem in FS and the current crisis is just the biggest manifestation of it."
Well, even if they didn't decide what the traders could do then they decided not to decide it and the buck still stops with them - if you see what I mean. I'm not saying that I expect the management of a bank to understand what every trade means but there should be someone in between them and the trader who does. If there isn't then you shouldn't give the traders control of loads of your money to make huge bets with.
I'm not saying that all banks did follow this method but that those who didn't ought to have done and it is right to penalise the top guys in the wallet if they don't supervise the people who can potentially lose them their shirt.
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
Just saw this in a post by Gary Posner -- sounds about right:

Hmmm. It doesn't answer the question of whether bankers were paid bonuses on "real" profits.

And the proposition that the banking crisis is the fault of the Fed for keeping interest rates too low (which they did) is a bit screwy - their risk management was non existent, since they systematically dismantled their risk management mechanisms and relationships. And their hedging turned out to be utterly correlated. Just blaiming the government / the regulators / mummy in no way absolves them of guilt.
 

vimothy

yurp
Don't disagree. Obviously it's a lot more complicated than just blaming Greenspan suggests (for one thing, the Fed is holding down short-term US interest rates; for another, as we can see, deflation is very bad). Just think that the incentives for traders as well as senior executives are important. Not sure what you're getting at here: are you disagreeing with me, with the Posner quote, or with the rest of Posner's post?
 

vimothy

yurp
Greenspan the neo-Keynesian:

The US government may have to nationalise some banks on a temporary basis to fix the financial system and restore the flow of credit, Alan Greenspan, the former Federal Reserve chairman, has told the Financial Times.

In an interview, Mr Greenspan, who for decades was regarded as the high priest of laisser-faire capitalism, said nationalisation could be the least bad option left for policymakers.

”It may be necessary to temporarily nationalise some banks in order to facilitate a swift and orderly restructuring,” he said. “I understand that once in a hundred years this is what you do.”
 

vimothy

yurp
What is the state of bankruptcy law in this country? How easy is for the government to shut down an insolvent bank, liquidate its shareholders and bond holders, sack its management and sell off its working operations? What regulates this process? Cheers.
 

polystyle

Well-known member
Seeking the bottom

Watching the joint appearance of Brown and Obama the other day,
and with Brown's finance advisor(s) , who seem to have sussed things out -well, better then the US has, I just hope things have begun settling into a ... bottom.
As Obama said, the stock market goes up and it goes down ,esp. lately
but knowing that alot of the last Bush finance people's actions were mainly meant to avoid a run on the banks here, one looks for an 'end' at some point.

Futures: The Stock market stays somewhat up for two days in a row. ( not today tho !)
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
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WTF. sometimes youtube embed works sometimes it doesnt.


America must work on starting a new economy and not restarting the old one or it will resemble the former Soviet Union, says author and blogger Dmitry Orlov.

more goodness from russian times:


 
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josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
Okay, here is one for Vim.

From what I can tell, it seems like a group of incompetent gangsters essentially took over the financial system and looted it, like Charles V looting his peasants, as idiot regulators stood by and let them.

What am I missing here?
 

polystyle

Well-known member
Madoff pleads guilty

Ponzi man has people pissed off
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes....streets-greatest-villain/?partner=rss&emc=rss

Lots of anger about Madoff's ripoff ,
and last week marked a rather unusual turn of events here in the NY area -

Last Thursday , our landlord Tishmen & Speyer - real estate 'Masters of their universe' -
were found guilty of overcharging certain renters, which they did after recieving tax breaks from the city.
Sure, they will appeal, etc. but ... it was such a rare victory for tenants.

Meanwhile in NJ on Thursday, the Hoboken Zoning Board turned down another real estate force - Trammel Crow - in their attempt to turn the Neumann Leather Building into condos.
This is building that currently houses many small, tiny business' and artists spaces,
a Sonic Youth studio /storage and another studio Mark C (Live Skull) and I go to rehearse and jam .
We had attended one meeting, the urgency of the matter got Ira from Yo La Tengo out as well and we sat their watching and listening to the T C lawyers phalanx haughty disdain and left that one feeling chances were slim for the Building.
But , another week, another turn of things ...
This week Yo La Tengo just released an album of covers under the name "Condo Fucks" ...
And Dave Sitek ( TV On The Radio) announced the closing of his Studio in Bk due to rising rents.

Hope everyone can keep well and cont. doing what they like doing ...
 
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vimothy

yurp
"It’s almost worth the Great Depression to learn how little our big men know"

Josef -- I'd say you're probably missing quite a lot, as you're no doubt aware.

The short answer is, I think you're giving the masters of the universe too much credit. "Looting" implies a degree of control and intent not present, IMO. To take the obvious example, had they (the masters of the universe) known the true nature of the game, they never would have held onto the toxic junk (super-senior CDO tranches, e.g.) that has done so much damage. Furthermore, "looting" implies a simple transfer of ownership: you had a load of stuff, then I stole most of it. In fact, wealth has been destroyed, and the $80tn in global financial assets of mid-2007 is now worth more like $60tn. As for the regulators, they have, in a sense, encouraged the recklessness through the implicit "too big to fail" guarantee. Institutions felt that they could take risks, because they would be shielded from the consequences. This misalignment of organisational incentives mirrors the misalignment of incentives on the individual level: just as financial intermediaries were exposed to the upside, but protected from the downside, so individuals made bonuses on the way up, but didn't directly and personally lose money on the way down. If you have a choice between making a risky investment for a fifty-fifty chance at making your salary and a bonus or just your salary, or making a risk-free investment and definitely making your salary... well, the expected value (to you, not to your firm or the firm's investors) of the former is obviously higher.

So it may be fairer to say some thing like this: a bunch of idiots broke the financial system, because on the individual level taking risks pays, and on the organisational level because they thought that if they ever got into too much trouble, the government would bail them out. As indeed it is trying to do, presently, to the best of its ability.

But these things, of themselves, were hardly sufficient. Necessary, perhaps, but hardly sufficient. The long answer is, I think, much more interesting, though I've not really got time to go into much of it right now. Have you ever heard of the "great moderation"? This is the phrase Ben Bernanke (I think) used to describe the reduction in aggregate economic volatility over the last twenty years. And if you take the data points for your risks models from this period, rather than from, say, the last one hundred years, you get very different output from the models. The stuff the banks use -- stress testing, value at risk, conditional value at risk -- told them everything would be fine, because it had always been fine, for as long as they could remember, which also happened to be a period of historically low aggregate volatility. There are some really interesting charts at the end of this paper by a BoE researcher, comparing the two time periods across a variety of different measures, so you can see just how atypical the last twenty years were in relation to the long-run trend.
 
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josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
A couple points, which I am posing to you as someone better informed as to these matters than me.

1) There is a theory that one of the root sources of this crises lie in the flood of cheap credit from China, which effectively overwhelmed the dykes of the banking system. Offering a version of this theory, Benanke concocted the view a while back that the US was heroically overstretching itself to meet excessive supply, which seems insane to me. But perhaps I have totally misunderstood this idea.

2) The "looting" I think lay precisely in this misalignment of organizational imperatives with real world economics. An ever-present problem given the nature of the Selectorate.

3) The idea that wealth can be destroyed is very mysterious to me, perhaps because I am an idiot. I mean, was the wealth really there, or was it simply illusory? And if the possibility of illusory wealth is admitted, how can this then be distinguished from real wealth?

4) How do you see this unfolding over the next couple of years? And what do you think of the government reactions that have so far taken place? Krugman was in the German papers today claiming the FDR's response to the crises has been lackluster. But the problems of the export-led German economy are, for obvious reasons, not only internal to Germany.
 
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