Suggest a Book for the dissensus book club!

Dial

Well-known member
I think the whole novel works continually via hypodiegesis ie the narrator (one level of discourse) reports what he has heard, in conversation, from Austerlitz (hypo-diegesis, or a secondary diegetic level) who in turn often reports what he himself has heard from a secondary character (or, to put it technically hypo- hypo- diegesis) who might, in turn be reporting something they've heard... Such a technique makes it hard to distinguish at which narrative 'level' we're at (which again I think is entirely deliberate and very artfully achieved).

As I say, at times, the speaking subject, as such, dissolves entirely into discourse - it is the language of the text which 'speaks' not some fictional construct one can identify as a 'character'.

Yes, I think I understand what you are getting at here but what of the very evident sense of a consciousness throughout. One that I quite naturally located within Austerlitz as I read. I may not be quite onto your meaning (specific example from the text would help clarify) but my feeling is that, rather than the speaking subject dissolving into the text, which suggests dissolution of self/subjectivity, it concentrates itself as affect. As a subject struggling with an all pervasive suffering/stunted self and seeking to disinter/resolve its roots to overcome this in some way. This resulted in more, not less meaning, no? - an increase in subjectivity.

Mind you having said that, this ‘concentration of affect’ is also a generalizing-out into the world at large. Indeed, a dissolution into a/the general discourse - that of the book. There is no real outside or inside to Austerlitz as affect. All that we see and experience within the novel’s passage is at one with his pained subjectivity; the desolate brutalized landscapes, the repellently grandiose/decayed architecture, the patches of sun and light which do not last. Interior and exterior alike. Thus one could argue that while individual character dissolves, consciousness and meaning seep out and saturate the text at large.

Ok, I think I’ve just talked myself into some understanding of what you say. Ha. Let me know if I’m completely off track.

Seabald obviously knew his Roland Barthes very well and was very much influenced by him - evidenced also in the secondary text of the photographs/pictures which puncture the text and set up intriguing and complex relationships with the words on the page...

Yes, but. I’d like to go back and look again at the photographs. I was a little ambivalent as I read. At times I thought they worked well with the text - with or against - (eg pp 119-20, 125, 164, 203, 206, 272-273) and at others - particularly some of the grainy poor quality landscape images - I found there was too much of a contrast with the refinement of the writing. The difference in materiality was too much. (compare the cover image with page 258) It was jarring and effect was lost for me, not augmented. In a book of such sensuous ambient prose the materiality of the images matters, I feel. Moreover many of the images referring to some grand feature of the land/city scape were tiny. What was Herr Sebald thinking, I wonder. I didn’t come away feeling he had a particular talent for the admixture of image with text. I’d go so far to say that Austerlitz would have been equally wonderful without a single image. They were largely redundant, a bit of a pretence even. No doubt it could be argued the crap images were very much to the point.

That aside I think you’re quite right - there is considerable accord between Camera Lucida and Austerlitz. Not so much in the use of images but in the concept of ‘the impossible science of the unique being’ (p 71, CL) - the singularity- which Barthes sought so ardently to find in photographs of his mother. And which he finally found in the photograph of her as a child in the Winter Garden at Chennvieres-sur-Marne.

Surely Austerlitz is engaged in a very similar pursuit, only his pursuit is of himself and the truth/self he is pursuing is constructing itself along the way. Hence the search itself very much a fumbling in the dark towards the indistinct. Barthes’ search for his mother’s ‘unique being’ a much happier, more lucid enterprise by comparison, though still highly fraught.

Barthes notion of the punctum might also be another explanation of why the images in the book work in a less than stellar fashion for me, but brilliantly perhaps for you - as against them being just not that well crafted and/or redundant. The ‘punctum’, for those unaware, is that indefinable thing which affects you and you alone. Whether a piece of music, an aspect of an image, a fleeting look, a view, or a rock you accidentally kick on the way to work - anything at all that ‘wounds’ you in Barthes’ words. That reaches you powerfully by way of a highly specific intersection of stimuli and response that marks the radical singularity that is you. If that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense I suggest you get onto Camera Lucida. Its a great read.

I will say this about Austerlitz and the punctum. Much of the novel was dreary, much of it was beautiful and mesmerising, and a very very small part of it for me was extremely potent: One part of one page. There was my punctum. It made the book worthwhile, needless to say.

And thanks for this thread; I’d come to be a bit stuck on the novel as drear and lachrymose and best for the elderly looking back on their life. (which is to say I’ll read it again one day) A sort of - who’s that thin English woman who writes nice refined novels??? - for those inclined to morose reverie and grand concatenations of subjectivity, history, landscape, and architecture. I don’t know if I’ve really changed my mind but I’m enjoying having to think about it a little. And there’s always that punctum.
 
Last edited:

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Would anyone be up for reading some non-fiction and chatting about it on here?

Just a thought.
 

Dial

Well-known member
Would anyone be up for reading some non-fiction and chatting about it on here?

Just a thought.

Oh, Mr Tea, and right after my long windedness! I feel your pain brother :eek:

China, World War II, Early 20th Century North Asian History, Finkelstein on Israel would be good to discuss/listen (cough) in on.

Memo to self: must be more pithy.
 
Last edited:

you

Well-known member
I finished it a few days ago and really really enjoyed it. Two very striking metaphors struck me in the last part of the book, the library, the information behind the cumbersome and inpentratable institution mirroring austeritz's searching in vain through all sorts of documents and photographs as well as the loss of info in the war and also the covering up and destroying of info by the SS and people etc..... also the graveyard he discovered at the back of his house, the unseen dead actually being so close to him but for so long out of his sight/conciousness. I think both of these metaphors are also wonderful metaphors for post war germany and/or europe in general, the forgotten info, forgotten dead, forgotten history/ happenings etc etc etc

I also kinda feel this technique of story through hypo-hypo-diegesis is almost a metaphor too! For how historys/storys/narratives etc and what not are buried through people and time and Austerlitz himself really has to dig to find his history.

Also, i mentioned to my grandma what i was reading and she actually misheard me thought I said "Auschwitz", I find all these metaphors and phonic clues so affecting, Sebald is one of the best writers ive read for a long time, im really glad the input form people here has helped me realise this.

Oh, Mr Tea - I wouldnt mind reading some non-fiction, infact I think it maybe nice to read something like camera lucida as a follow up to this book, or something else by Barthes ( who ive yet to read ) I know some people will have already read this but to be honest I have found it to be really beneficial to the thread that people like "john doe" have read Austerlitz 4 times and can add something to the discussion that first time readers may not.
 

Dial

Well-known member
I’d come to be a bit stuck on the novel as drear and lachrymose and best for the elderly looking back on their life. (which is to say I’ll read it again one day) A sort of - who’s that thin English woman who writes nice refined novels??? - for those inclined to morose reverie and grand concatenations of subjectivity, history, landscape, and architecture.

Anita Brookner's the one. And, coincidentally, actually surnamed Maude and born in Germany.

Its interesting that Camera Lucida is mentioned more than once. I read it recently and enjoyed it tremendously. And, that, I believe, was due in large part to the way I read it: One of its very short chapters a day, first aloud, then once more to myself, and taking notes at random. This seemed to work brilliantly for what is a short work of highly poetic analysis.

Austerlitz on the other hand suffered greatly from being read in short 20/30 minute bursts - often days apart - and in the midst of busy days. I never really gave myself or the book the space to really work. I plan to read it again, and this time take the time. Whats life if you can't fit in an hour or two of reading a day?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Also, i mentioned to my grandma what i was reading and she actually misheard me thought I said "Auschwitz", I find all these metaphors and phonic clues so affecting, Sebald is one of the best writers ive read for a long time, im really glad the input form people here has helped me realise this.

Yeah, my girlfriend's dad saw the cover of the book yesterday and made the same mistake!
The more people talk about this, the more obvious it becomes...all the more interesting in that (as far as I know, I'm about 50 pages away from finishing it) no particular death camps are even mentioned, in contrast to the really fastidious detail with which he describes life in the ghetto of Theresienstadt. In fact he seems to tiptoe around explicitly mentioning the Holocaust itself throughout the whole book, apart from little hints like the bit I just read today about the French Jewish couple who "dissolved into the air", as he fantastically hypothesises happened to the ancient, frail landlady from whom he rented his apartment in Paris.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
pithier (the irony!) :p


stephenfry2ch1.jpg
 

jenks

thread death
I thought i'd have a look at a few of the bits i underlined whilst i read it.

On 109 'In my photographic work i was always especially entranced, said Austerlitz, by the moment when the shadows of reality, so to speak, emerge out of nothing on the exposed paper, as memories do in the middle of the night, darkening again if you try to cling on to them, just like photographic print left in the developing bath too long.'

I think maybe here Sebald yokes two ideas together here very well - in some ways he even provides a kind of explanation for the pictures that inhabit the text. It is the idea that these memories arrive unbidden but cannot be forced, that the elusive nature of finding out who exactly he is has to be done in a tangential and allusive manner. That the straightforward approach will lead to nothing other than a 'darkening'.

on page 258 '...before i heard Vera again, speaking of the mysterious quality peculiar to such photographs when they surface from oblivion. One has the impression, she said, of soemthing stirring in them, as if one caught small sighs of despair, gemissements de desespoir was her expression, said Austerlitz, as if the pictures had a memory of their own and remembered us, remembered the roles that we, the survivors, and those no longer among us had played in our former lives.'

Isn't this partly what he is trying to exhibit here with the pictures - although in a fictional setting they are gesturing towards this kind of importance aren't they? I am presuming these are all Sebald's own pictures, there are no picture credits that i could find and this adds to this sense of veracity.

I can't help thinking that somehow when Sebald asks why, in The Natural History of Destruction, the Germans didn't protest to the fire bombing of Dresden and comes up with the answer that maybe the Germans felt they deserved it, that his somehow connects with the story of Austerlitz, a man who says 'I was about to die of the weak heart i have inherited, from whom i do not know'

As you can probably tell I'm not someone who works with an obvious 'theoretical position' i find it interesting when people say that he obviously knew his Barthes or Benjamin. I can't say my thoughts have cohered into a anything like a shape, i just find it all quite interesting batting this stuff around. I'm not dismissive of a theory based approach - i'm quite envious that someone has managed to have a framework with which they channel their thoughts - a unified vision, so to speak. My training/background is much more an old fashioned Lit crit, very I.A. Richards, Empson kind of chap i suppose.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"I think maybe here Sebald yokes two ideas together here very well - in some ways he even provides a kind of explanation for the pictures that inhabit the text. It is the idea that these memories arrive unbidden but cannot be forced, that the elusive nature of finding out who exactly he is has to be done in a tangential and allusive manner. That the straightforward approach will lead to nothing other than a 'darkening'."
I think you're on it here. To me it's a whole novel, in one sense at least, about that feeling when something is "on the tip of your tongue" and, as everyone knows, the best way to remember that thing is to think about something else and yet somehow not forget that you were trying to remember something.

"As you can probably tell I'm not someone who works with an obvious 'theoretical position' i find it interesting when people say that he obviously knew his Barthes or Benjamin. I can't say my thoughts have cohered into a anything like a shape, i just find it all quite interesting batting this stuff around. I'm not dismissive of a theory based approach - i'm quite envious that someone has managed to have a framework with which they channel their thoughts - a unified vision, so to speak. My training/background is much more an old fashioned Lit crit, very I.A. Richards, Empson kind of chap i suppose."
Likewise. I mean I have no literary crit background whatsoever (my degree was in maths) but I enjoy batting ideas around and I'm very interested to hear what others have to say as long as they explain what they mean rather than just drop names.
 

you

Well-known member
Sorry if im chomping at the bit but the discussion seems to be winding down and a few people have mentioned they have finished it ( I know some finished long ago ).

So, what im asking is for people to start throwing ideas around for the next book.

Personally I would like to tackle something classic and longer. The thread has really helped me get alot out of Austerlitz so ( more than I would otherwise but I guess ill never know ) I wouldnt mind reading something I would probably lose interest in, maybe an ancient classic, or a non fiction book???? Pynchon? Bros K??

Mr tea, indigo, idlerich..... any ideas??
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Sorry if im chomping at the bit but the discussion seems to be winding down and a few people have mentioned they have finished it ( I know some finished long ago )."
Well, I'm with you to a point but I reckon that there is more to be said on this book. As far as I know some people haven't finished (and maybe aren't going to, I'm thinking especially of Mixed_Biscuits and PeterGunn who didn't seem that impressed) but I think everyone should have the chance. Maybe those who aint going to finish it could say so and that would remove any worry about spoilers (such as they are).
Is anyone still plugging away without having finished it?
I will certainly be up for another book soon though. I think that I have got stuff out of this book that I otherwise wouldn't and I hope that there is (at least some) more to come.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Finished it last night. Really enjoyed it, quite different from pretty much anything else I've read before, I have to say. Would like to check out some other Sebald in the future, definitely.
I might have some more particular comments to make a bit later, I'm quite busy today though.

Unfortunately I think I might sit the next out as I've just picked up my Stephenson again and I'm 362 pages in (out of 916). In answer to you-r question, I'd be well up for some Pynchon (Rainbow was my fist choice when you and Rich started this little club.) I like the idea of some ancient classics, too - anyone up for the Mahabharata? Or would that be a bit too 'way out there'? Or is such a qustion meaningless to a bunch of people who read Pynchon, Ballard, PK Dick, RA Wilson...? ;)
 
Last edited:

jenks

thread death
Finished it last night. Really enjoyed it, quite different from pretty much anything else I've read before, I have to say. Would like to check out some other Sebald in the future, definitely.

I'd go for Rings Of Saturn next if you wanted more Sebald.

BTW - I hope discussion isn't over on Austerlitz, i had the impression it was just warming up.

As to what comes next. Some have expressed an interest in a 'classic' - Bros K got a lot of calls, whilst others have mentioned some non-fiction. Personally as much as i want to read Bros K i can see problems with the sheer length - people were champing to discuss without spoilers on what was essentially quite a short read with Austerlitz. I reckon it'd probably take me three weeks to get through it given teh amount of work I've got on at the moment.

Also i fancy a bit more 'off the beaten track' if we are going to do a 'classic' - soemthing that is not a usual suspect.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"BTW - I hope discussion isn't over on Austerlitz, i had the impression it was just warming up."
Likewise.
I certainly don't think that I've fully grasped the book (maybe it can't be grasped, that would fit quite well with the subject) so there is certainly more to be said.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
BTW - I hope discussion isn't over on Austerlitz, i had the impression it was just warming up.

Oh, absolutey - I wasn't trying to say "Well that was a good book, let's move on to the next one"!
I'll just need a few days to collect my thoughts on it and get some actual work out of the way.
 
Top