Abortion

Freakaholic

not just an addiction
Ahh, so then would it be reasonable to summarise your position (if may take such a liberty :)) as "quality, not quantity" when it comes to human life? That extinguishing some potential human lives (with birth providing a convenient cut-off point between potential and actual life) while bringing up others that will be cared for and given a decent chance is better than demanding that *all* foetuses be taken to term, even though some of them will be unwanted and (adoption notwithstanding) probably have rotten lives as a result?

And as a lemma to this, where do you stand on totally unsuitable parents - the sort of people who, by this argument, really ought to have the pregnancy aborted - who insist on having kids anyway?

Thats an interesting way of putting it, and i dont think, on the surface, i have any problems with that.

I am a proponent of enforced sterilization, or at least restricted reproduction.

Some interesting, if not humourous, input on this from Chris Korda (of Ghostly International and Spectral):

http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org

Check out his e-sermon on Humans as Cancer
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
"someone made a comment along the lines of "a woman should have the absolute right to decide what goes on in her body" - couldn't a wifebeater just as well say "I should have the absolute right to do as I please in my own home"?

:slanted:

The analogy doesn't follow, but you might be interested to know that in some places in the U.S. (Ohio is one), any woman seeking to have an abortion must obtain consent of the "father." If she is unsure of the father, she has to submit a list of all her past partners who are then subject to paternity tests.

Perhaps not coincidentally, Ohio is experiencing a boom in teen pregnancy.

Whoever said the issue in the U.S. is black and white is off the mark; very few people are adamantly pro-choice anymore (just as very few people are adamantly feminist), and many states have rolled back abortion rights so much as to make them practically impossible (having one clinic in the entire state, all manner of bureaucratic rules). The Democrats are completely shaky on this point, and conventional wisdom is rapidly shifting to outlawing it, or at least heavily restricting it. Roe v. Wade will go the way of Brown v. Board in at least 15 years.
 

ripley

Well-known member
Two points

1. discussing adoption as an alternate to abortion is inappropriate.
Carrying a child to term inside one's body for 9 months and going though the process of giving birth is a life-threatening, as well as seriously costly experience, and most of the cost can only be borne by the body of the mother, it cannot be shared. Forcing women to bear that cost is a serious step, and is not equal to the cost to the woman of undergoing an abortion.

2. more generally, preventing women from having abortions they want must be recognized as something which disproportionately affects women, especially with respect to their bodies (including, again, risk of death). This has serious implications for women's autonomy in the world we live in, in contrast with men. Even if one could rely on fathers sticking around and providing 50% material support (something which society does not appear to require of them), point 1 still is a factor -w hat about one's life in that 9 months? Even setting aside the distasteful way people discuss babies as "punishment" - what are the ethic of system that punishes mothers so much more than fathers?
 

tate

Brown Sugar
Whoever said the issue in the U.S. is black and white is off the mark; very few people are adamantly pro-choice anymore (just as very few people are adamantly feminist), and many states have rolled back abortion rights so much as to make them practically impossible (having one clinic in the entire state, all manner of bureaucratic rules).
Typical mis-statement I've come to associate with dissensians: "[in the US] . . . very few people are adamantly pro-choice anymore." What? Total bullshit. How do you quantify "very few people" in the US anyway? If you're a Brit, you don't know what you're talking about, if you're in the US, you must live under a rock (and yes i've read your many posts and pieces for stylus etc etc - which makes your statement even more bizarre). The current supreme court composition is indeed scary and completely fraudulent as an intellectual entity (thomas, roberts, and scalia are a joke, on an intellectual level, as far as i am concerned), but let's not go around saying that "very few people are adamantly pro-choice" in the US anymore, b/c that's simply not correct.

Nice points by Ripley, by the way, as always.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Typical mis-statement I've come to associate with dissensians: "[in the US] . . . very few people are adamantly pro-choice anymore." What? Total bullshit. How do you quantify "very few people" in the US anyway? If you're a Brit, you don't know what you're talking about, if you're in the US, you must live under a rock (and yes i've read your many posts and pieces for stylus etc etc - which makes your statement even more bizarre). The current supreme court composition is indeed scary and completely fraudulent as an intellectual entity (thomas, roberts, and scalia are a joke, on an intellectual level, as far as i am concerned), but let's not go around saying that "very few people are adamantly pro-choice" in the US anymore, b/c that's simply not correct.

Nice points by Ripley, by the way, as always.

Ok, I'll admit I don't discuss the abortion thing very often, but when I do, even the people who defend it take a "yes, but" position. They shuffle uncomfortably, they sense that their arguments ring hollow, and more and more they concede points to the anti-abortionists, or have these stupid "but what about rape and incest" arguments that don't really do anything to shore up the right for legal safe abortions for any woman who wants one. Rarely do women's rights take the place they should (in this thread it took several pages), and it's been a while since I've heard someone pro-abortion articulate that position well -- actually, ripley's post was the best job of that I've seen in a while. Plenty of "liberals" or "democrats" or whatever they want to call themselves are anti-abortion, even (and especially) young people. There's a sense that the battle has already been lost or will be soon and now it's time for a strategic retreat where we hold on to what we can. I'm pretty sure NOW people are already saying this.

And I live in the U.S. and while I haven't been under a rock, I have been in Ohio for a while until recently, which may account for my particular perspective on this.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Two points

1. discussing adoption as an alternate to abortion is inappropriate.
Carrying a child to term inside one's body for 9 months and going though the process of giving birth is a life-threatening, as well as seriously costly experience, and most of the cost can only be borne by the body of the mother, it cannot be shared. Forcing women to bear that cost is a serious step, and is not equal to the cost to the woman of undergoing an abortion.

2. more generally, preventing women from having abortions they want must be recognized as something which disproportionately affects women, especially with respect to their bodies (including, again, risk of death). This has serious implications for women's autonomy in the world we live in, in contrast with men. Even if one could rely on fathers sticking around and providing 50% material support (something which society does not appear to require of them), point 1 still is a factor -w hat about one's life in that 9 months? Even setting aside the distasteful way people discuss babies as "punishment" - what are the ethic of system that punishes mothers so much more than fathers?

Fine, if there is a clear and present danger to the life of the mother, then perhaps abortion is justified (as you are thereby maximising the chances that the number of humans about stays stable).

Temporary physical pain, financial cost (however onerous either might be) and harm to one's 'lifestyle' give as little cause to kill an unborn human being as one that has been born (provided that one believes that their lives are equally important).

You overlook the fact that nobody 'forces' women to get pregnant in the first place. Unless there has been rape, then unwanted pregnancy is due to mismanagement of your own life. If you've screwed up, you deal with it. Why should the baby pay the price?

And regarding fathers sticking around, why not go to the lengths of being pretty sure that who you have conceived a child with is a decent sort who will stick around? And if they aren't, then 'hard cheese - that's life.'
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
yet another instance from ripley of why this board needs more women, and yet another example of why that probably won't happen in the initial post. the pro-life position is way too limited in its scope to take into account the various reasons why abortions happen - and need to happen. very few women take this step lightly or use it as an alternative to contraception 1) because it's pretty inconvenient at the very least 2) because the procedure is pretty harrowing for most who have to undergo it. no one is saying that it's pleasant or good or without implication. however, it can be the responsible thing to do for a variety of different reasons. better no child than an unwanted child or a child that would be at any kind of risk unacceptable to the expectant mother, as far as i can see.

to that latter end, walking through hackney the other day i saw a women who was 8 months pregnant if she was a day smacked out of her tree, with a can of tennents super in hand and an equally drunk and fucked up guy slapping her around (luckily several people stepped in to stop this and i didn't have to cross the road and get involved because it was a pretty ugly scene). was keeping the baby the best option in this scenario?

still, outside of casting judgement on people and their ability to look after a child, which is, although in that particular instance pretty clear-cut to my mind, very knotty territory for the most part (ie what really consitutes "being able to care for a child"? a lot of different things actually and there's no perfect set of criteria either), it's every individual woman's place to say what she does and does not want to go through, not a man's and certainly not that of wider society.

wider society (particularly those members on the anti-abortion side) tends toward the hyperbolic, sentimental and irrational when discussing the "right" to life. this is evident in the continual falling back on a belief in god as sole architect/destroyer of life as a way of blanking out life's difficult and uncomfortable realities and the way that new or potential life is privileged over that which is pre-existent. this last point doesn't make a great deal of sense at all. the risk to a woman's health of carrying a child to term is a very important issue here. sure, in the affluent west, we're not living in the 18th century any more and comparatively few women die in childbirth. however, it can still happen, and in significantly more cases giving birth can, while not actually killing the mother, do a hell of a lot of damage to future health. ante-natal care being such as it is these days, most women are made aware of any such problems in advance and those kinds of risks are up to a woman to weigh up and decide upon. after all, if having a baby is going to kill a woman how can anyone say that she has to see the pregnancy through? isn't that "justifiable murder", too? also adoption isn't a straightforward issue for women carrying unwanted babies, either. it has many implications, political and personal.

of course, we'd all rather live in a world where abortions weren't happening because they're not pleasant things to have to think about, but sometimes life is about making the least unpleasant of several unpleasant choices. just because things aren't fluffy and nice doesn't mean that they're not necessary. also, it's always best to avoid standing in judgement over those kinds of choices because you never know when you might have to make them yourself, just as you can never fully understand another person's experiences or circumstances.
 
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mixed_biscuits

_________________________
it's every individual woman's right to say what she does and does not want to go through, not a man's and certainly not that of wider society.

First of all, it is quite often men and wider society that enable abortions for women. ;)

Regarding rights, individual women could attempt to opt out of society and assume any rights that they want but, if they succeeded in doing so, they would lie outside of the ethical sphere (ethics deals with our conduct in society) and the ethical problem of abortion would no longer be under discussion.

new or potential life is privileged over that which is pre-existent. this doesn't make a great deal of sense at all.

Personally, I'm not arguing for privileging life-in-the-womb over life-outside-it. I'm merely arguing for parity, as I can't see how we can reasonably make a definitive distinction between the human-being-in-development (from the moment of conception until 18 or so) and the grown human-being-in-decline (anything after, like me :(). I would accord equal rights and make any ethical decisions from that premise, including decisions made on the basis of a threat to the mother's health.

Thought experiment: in the future, no woman need gestate her child. The embryo is developed artificially, away from the mother's body. What rights will be accorded to the developing foetus?
 
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Mr. Cheese

Paternal Reassurance
I think this oft-repeated phrase is a bit ridiculous:

“A woman should have the absolute right to decide what to do with her body”

Does anyone think this should be the case if she is eight months pregnant? It’s an OK rule of thumb, but I find that it’s all too often used as a conversation killer.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
I think this oft-repeated phrase is a bit ridiculous:

“A woman should have the absolute right to decide what to do with her body”

Does anyone think this should be the case if she is eight months pregnant? It’s an OK rule of thumb, but I find that it’s all too often used as a conversation killer.

As Mr Tea said earlier, the problem is that there is another body inside her body - and the former is, more so than not, a separate entity (which is, after all, why you can usually cause it fatal harm with no long-lasting damage to its host).
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Ripley said "what are the ethic of system that punishes mothers so much more than fathers?"
It is nature that puts the baby in the mother rather than the father - that may not be fair but you cannot say it is unethical. For me the first question is whether or not it is ok under certain circumstances to kill a foetus before it is born. This question is prior to any other. If (like mixed_biscuits) you think it's not ok then - unfortunately - women have to bear the brunt of that decision.
What you are saying is "It would be unethical for women to suffer more than a man after they have both been equally responsible for her pregnancy - therefore it is ok to kill a foetus" - do you think that that argument is valid? I think it's putting the cart before the horse and a distraction from the real question.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
2. more generally, preventing women from having abortions they want must be recognized as something which disproportionately affects women

I guess IR has just made this point, but it struck me as well: surely pregnancy itself is something "disproportionately affects women"? At the risk of stating the obvious, it's men that get women pregnant, but it's women that actually get pregnant...
 

ripley

Well-known member
It is nature that puts the baby in the mother rather than the father - that may not be fair but you cannot say it is unethical. For me the first question is whether or not it is ok under certain circumstances to kill a foetus before it is born. This question is prior to any other. If (like mixed_biscuits) you think it's not ok then - unfortunately - women have to bear the brunt of that decision.

it's not that women HAVE to, it's that society is organized in a way to force women to bear the brunt. If abortion is a choice woman can make, i.e. is society is organized differently, then they clearly don't have to bear quite so much.

of course, if life was overall organized so that it was easier to be a parent that also would reduce abortions, and would have the added bonus of not forcing women to bear children.

What you are saying is "It would be unethical for women to suffer more than a man after they have both been equally responsible for her pregnancy - therefore it is ok to kill a foetus" - do you think that that argument is valid? I think it's putting the cart before the horse and a distraction from the real question.

It is what I'm saying, and it is not at all the cart before the horse. because the suffering is a matter of society, and not biology. So the ethics have to do with what is avoidable, and what kinds of overall outcomes will occur based on what society. Pretending that mothers and fathers are in equal positions with respect to pregnancy is at least naive, and at worst, dangerous because it denies that.

in "nature" of course, women would lose far more pregnancies than they do now, but we don't allow nature to dictate when a wanted fetus is threatened. We don't say "oh that's just nature in action" when women rush to the hospital to preserve the pregnancy when they go into premature labor or have problem with their pregnancy. It's the organization of society. It's not nature that prevents women from having access to abortion, either.

edited to add - I'm not talking about "ok to kill a fetus" so much as urging a more realistic and ground concept of ethics, that takes into account the unequal positions of the parties involved. Some folks are quite willing to consider the unequal position of a fetus, but have more trouble taking into account the unequal position of women in this situation. Fetuses may survive or not based on a variety of decisions outside factors like stress, nutrition, environment, etc, and also pure accident. Forcing a woman to bear an unwanted fetus is not a decision by the fetus, it is a decision by another person (or persons). Arguing that those other persons have more rights than the woman subjugates women in society.

the one thing mixed biscuits has right is that if fetuses were grown in vats this would be a much simpler ethical issue, but we're not there yet by a long shot. (so long as child-rearing is women's work it would still have gender implications too)
 
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mixed_biscuits

_________________________
the one thing mixed biscuits has right

Hey, hold it right there, I'm right about everything! ;)

I don't think your points have much bearing on the ethics of the situation. The ethical demand that considers the foetus' life more important than others' convenience would hold regardless of the type of person who invokes it, whether they are male, female, premiership footballer or dwarf.

Furthermore, that the foetus is 'unwanted' should not be, in itself, reason enough to justify terminating it. After all, as the law stands, a woman cannot proclaim that a 30 week old foetus is 'unwanted' and thereby be allowed to dispose of it. Being 'unwanted' is obviously not a sufficient condition in itself. It is only because younger foetuses are considered to be 'less than human' in a significant way that abortions are held to be justified. As I can't see how they can be reasonably considered in this way, I am against abortion. It is our conception (heh) of the foetus that is the deciding factor.

I still don't know why, if women are dead set against having a baby, they don't just make a special effort to avoid getting knocked up in the first place. Unless the pregnancy is forced, it's just a question of mismanagement.
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
"it's not that women HAVE to, it's that society is organized in a way to force women to bear the brunt. If abortion is a choice woman can make, i.e. is society is organized differently, then they clearly don't have to bear quite so much."
No, read what I said again.

"If (like mixed_biscuits) you think it's not ok (to kill a foetus) then - unfortunately - women have to bear the brunt of that decision."
What you have said is not an argument about the "then" not following from the "if", you are refusing to accept the "if".
Which you are free to do of course, but it doesn't change the fact that if it is immoral to kill a foetus then that leaves pregnant women stuck.
I'm not pro-life by the way but that leaves me having to face the uncomfortable realisation that I think in some circumstances it is ok to kill a foetus. I'd like to be able to justify that to myself and I'm not sure you can argue it from the fact that "otherwise it is not fair on women" (Though my girlfriend says that you can).
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Hey, hold it right there, I'm right about everything! ;)

I don't think your points have much bearing on the ethics of the situation. The ethical demand that considers the foetus' life more important than others' convenience would hold regardless of the type of person who invokes it, whether they are male, female, premiership footballer or dwarf.

Furthermore, that the foetus is 'unwanted' should not be, in itself, reason enough to justify terminating it. After all, as the law stands, a woman cannot proclaim that a 30 week old foetus is 'unwanted' and thereby be allowed to dispose of it. Being 'unwanted' is obviously not a sufficient condition in itself. It is only because younger foetuses are considered to be 'less than human' in a significant way that abortions are held to be justified. As I can't see how they can be reasonably considered in this way, I am against abortion. It is our conception (heh) of the foetus that is the deciding factor.

I still don't know why, if women are dead set against having a baby, they don't just make a special effort to avoid getting knocked up in the first place. Unless the pregnancy is forced, it's just a question of mismanagement.

The implicit (occasionally explicit) assumption of your posts is that women have abortions because a baby would be too "inconvenient" or because they were too lazy/stupid to use birth control (and thus deserve the "punishment" of a baby which the man, who in many cases decided not to wrap his own shit up, faces nothing of the sort, by your own previous admission). These one-dimensional characterizations really need to be left out of any meaningful debate on abortion.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
The implicit (occasionally explicit) assumption of your posts is that women have abortions because a baby would be too "inconvenient".

Well, if it isn't because of a risk to the mother's life, then isn't an abortion sought, in the final analysis, because of the 'inconvenience', greater or lesser, to either the parents and/or society at large?

Presumably getting pregnant when you didn't intend to involves a mistake (by definition) somewhere along the line, and the woman is normally complicit in the whole affair - or am I missing something?

In any case, my argument on the identity of the foetus and the grown man underpins my view and trumps more minor concerns - this is what you should be attacking, not the connotations of some of the language that I use (which is normally intentional, for my own amusement).
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
The implicit (occasionally explicit) assumption of your posts is that women have abortions because a baby would be too "inconvenient" or because they were too lazy/stupid to use birth control (and thus deserve the "punishment" of a baby which the man, who in many cases decided not to wrap his own shit up, faces nothing of the sort, by your own previous admission). These one-dimensional characterizations really need to be left out of any meaningful debate on abortion.

But for a man to get a woman pregnant, in Britain at any rate, is not without consequences for him, as he can (in theory, at least) be chased up by the Child Support Agency.

And all this talk of the woman being 'punished' if she doesn't have the option of aborting an unwanted pregnancy - surely the foetus is being punished (capitally, in fact) if she does terminate it? And if anyone has made a mistake, it is surely the would-be parents (yes, both of them, obviously) rather than the would-be child?

I'm not actually in the anti-abortion camp myself (I'd rather call it that than the ridculously vague 'pro-life' - I mean, who calls themselves 'pro-death', for fuck's sake?), I just find the arguments used by some of the more vociferous pro-choicers a bit specious.
 
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