If not capitalism then what exactly?

Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
ok, some interesting points. what would you say to the argument that governments seeking to encourage capitalist investment/mnc's etc... ban trade unions, actively move to lower wages, decrease legislation towards job security etc... as has been well documented in the Far East. And if that is the result of the political system of said country behaving too greedily in wanting to catch up with the rest of the world/pocket the money, then who's fault is that. Once again im talking about capitalism as more than just economic policy, as something that influences everything in our lives. The emphasis on inequality capitalism places in order to operate is not, in my opinion, restricted to economics nor conducive to the environment i would prefer to be living in
I'd be really interested to see the documentation you mention regarding repression of workers rights in the Far East. Were they really repressed or just bad already?

children work because they have to help their parents pay the rent (poor america/ and many "modernising" cities) buy the food (because they are no longer growing it) pay for healthcare, pay transport, pay for union representation (some cases) pay electricity bills (again some cases)

And? This is economic necessity. But as the family saves and borrows and aquires assets and/or improves the value of their labour they become wealthier. Perhaps the next generation of children in this family won't have to work. And as society as a whole becomes wealthier, pressure can be applied upon the politico-legal structure to recognise/formalise peoples 'rights'.

have you read upton sinclair's - the jungle. a bit biased but it gives a chilling account of the "efficiency" and "willingness" upon which people subject themselves to this work.

No but I'll check it out....thanks.


And yes, they create false markets to taunt us with goods we dont actually need, use up our resources in making them and some to dispose of them.

What is false about the markets that MNC's create. They supply goods which are demanded. Or they produce goods which are perhaps unecessary i.e people didn't need them before - but if people buy them the companies will keep on producing them. And what are our resources for if its not to be used? Capitalism drives innovation and I believe that these processes will 'discover' ways to deal with resource depletion/future extinction. Basically they have to since the whole system will depend on it.

have you also considered the increasingly disposable culture we are developing, where we need to produce more and more for companies to sell more and more to remain profitable.

Why do companies need to produce and sell more to remain profitable? If the cost of the inputs in fall (labour, materials, transport etc) then the price of the goods can fall and companies will remain profitable. However if the cost of inputs rise then the price of goods or the amount of goods produced (for equivalent inputs) has to rise in order for companies to remain profitable. Production of goods and services is constantly rising for a couple of reasons off the top of my head:
1.partly because there are more and more people on planet earth meaning an ever increasing workforce and an every increasing demand for basic goods;
2.partly because rising levels of wealth mean an ever-growing middle class with expendable income who create an ever-growing demand for consumer goods.
None of this is bad though surely? A growing market, diversifying and specializing, driving down prices (in the main) while absolute standards of living improve for the majority.

i accept you argument about some resources not being fully appreciated before capitalism but surely you can agree that the earth is a finite resource, and this expansion cannot continue forever.

The earth is certainly a finite resource but man's ingenuity is not. Since capitalism, more than any previous organisational system (at least any with the capacity to sustain 6 billion + human beings) drives rapid evolution and change it surely represents our best hope of dealing with loss of resources. The surplus wealth generated by capitalism is exactly what is necessary to do the research and fund the test pilots of innovations/technologies designed to deal with resource depletion. How would socialism, or whatever, detract from the inevitable problem that resources are finite? And would socialism, or whatever, be able to create the incentives to really mobilise people towrds finding alternative solutions?

also i'd like you to consider war, and its driving force in the global economy right now, how america is inches away from economic meltdown because its investing billions into arms to destroy other places.

So America has a looming economic crisis and this is all due to wars it's fighting now (and in the past i guess)? Have you got some factual evidence i can see to support these assertions?
 
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adruu

This Is It
• The Crippled Giant, by Sen. J. William Fulbright (D.-Ark.), 1972.

At the risk of being accused of every sin from racism to communism, I stress the irrelevance of ideology to poor, peasant populations. Someday, perhaps, it will matter, in what one hopes will be a constructive and utilitarian way. But in the meantime, what earthly difference does it make to nomadic tribes or uneducated subsistence farmers, in Vietnam or Cambodia or Laos, whether they have a military dictator, a royal prince or a socialist commissar in some distant capital that they have never seen and may never even have heard of?

At their current stage of undevelopment these populations have more basic requirements. They need governments which will provide medical services, education, birth control programs, fertilizer, high-yield seeds and instruction in how to use them. They need governments which are honest enough to refrain from robbing and exploiting them, purposeful enough to want to modernize their societies, and efficient enough to have some ideas about how to do it. Whether such governments are capitalist or socialist can be of little interest to the people involved, or to anyone except their incumbent rulers, whose perquisites are at stake, and their great-power mentors, fretting in their distant capitals about ideology and "spheres of interest."
 

Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
Yes, but it's not just that they have acted to reinforce that but that they have acted to reinforce that precisely because that is what capitalism demands that a company in their position should do.

But if human rights/labour rights are bad news for capitalism then why have they been allowed to develop in the 'West'? Our traditional fuedal status quo has been shattered, and democratic principles and concern for human rights have been able to blossom alongside capitalism. Of course companies seek less restrictions especially if the restrictions make thier operations more expensive. But companies make continual rational cost-benefit calculations about their options and in many cases choose to operate/continue to operate within a restrictive framework. Anyway happier workers are probably more productive workers and need less motivation/coercion to get on with it.

Possibly that is difficult to do in a country that already totally free (whatever that means), however you mentioned "the overthrow of Allende" and the United Fruit Company was instrumental in turning Guatemala back in to a dictatorship after it had begun to have free elections. I guess your point stands, it may be possible for a well-established and free country to stand on its own two feet and resist the anti-democratic urges of predatory MNCs although the involvement of MNCs tend to be bad news for those countries which haven't yet become democtratic or even started on that journey.

So really the question is: what can be done in the developing world to assist the creation of strong politico-legal structures which are in touch with the socio-economic reality/aspirations of the people? Have you got any suggestions? I don't think MNC activity is going to stop to lets take a different tack....

I'm not entirely sure I understood the last bit of your earlier post so if you want to elaborate for me :)
 

Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
• The Crippled Giant, by Sen. J. William Fulbright (D.-Ark.), 1972.

At the risk of being accused of every sin from racism to communism, I stress the irrelevance of ideology to poor, peasant populations. Someday, perhaps, it will matter, in what one hopes will be a constructive and utilitarian way. But in the meantime, what earthly difference does it make to nomadic tribes or uneducated subsistence farmers, in Vietnam or Cambodia or Laos, whether they have a military dictator, a royal prince or a socialist commissar in some distant capital that they have never seen and may never even have heard of?

At their current stage of undevelopment these populations have more basic requirements. They need governments which will provide medical services, education, birth control programs, fertilizer, high-yield seeds and instruction in how to use them. They need governments which are honest enough to refrain from robbing and exploiting them, purposeful enough to want to modernize their societies, and efficient enough to have some ideas about how to do it. Whether such governments are capitalist or socialist can be of little interest to the people involved, or to anyone except their incumbent rulers, whose perquisites are at stake, and their great-power mentors, fretting in their distant capitals about ideology and "spheres of interest."

Yeah good quote adruu.... i agree entirely with his sentiment. Who is this guy?
 

Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
i made everything up, cant compete

Its not a competition i was just interested to know where you're sourcing your info from. You're making some good points and i'm intrigued to know what you suggest given that the inequality capitalism produces is not conducive to the environment you'd prefer to live in. How would you rather things were? And do you have any practical ideas about how such an environment could be produced?
 
i read No Logo once by Naomi Klein - and in there i remember something about trade unions being suppressed in some far east country in order to please a multinational. i've since lent this book to a friend and dont have much hope for getting it back so i cant give you quotes facts or figures.

as for the american economy collapsing, i listened to this radical economics hour on resonance fm - and they were going on about it, so i just lifted it all from that, and am not to be trusted on that issue.

as for a perfect world, i used to be well into communism, then anarchism, and now i dont really care much for any of politics. i think its all a load of crap. i think what we need is to learn to live together in small groups of people and take more decisions collectively and see things through communally.

i do like the human race, honest. im not some hater. i just think we should stop being so individualistic and materialistic because its killing us.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"But if human rights/labour rights are bad news for capitalism then why have they been allowed to develop in the 'West'?"
But that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that in one situation human rights may be good for profit and in another they may be bad. Capitalism is amoral and in the one situation it will act to increase human rights and in the other it will act against them - you can't therefore make some huge claim that capitalism tends to increase human rights.

"So really the question is: what can be done in the developing world to assist the creation of strong politico-legal structures which are in touch with the socio-economic reality/aspirations of the people? Have you got any suggestions?"
Well, there's the rub. Like I said, I don't fervently desire the total downfall of capitalism because I find the excesses of the far left just as scary as the extreme right.
However total unfettered free-market capitalism of the kind that you're proposing is far from ideal. Your points so far are filled with bits saying things like "Anyway happier workers are probably more productive workers" and "I believe demand for 'rights' to be recognised will grow" which seem simply optimistic to me.
There is also a recurrent belief that capitalism will always solve any problem which seems entirely based on faith. There may be a point beyond which the planet (for example) may be beyond repair and it's simply not good enough to say "when we really need to solve that problem we will" - what is the basis for that?
I think that's also related to this bit

"I'm not entirely sure I understood the last bit of your earlier post so if you want to elaborate for me"
What I was alluding to was the way that companies have got out of hand. How can a company made up of people who (presumably) all (or at least mostly) individually believe in human rights act in a way that is contrary to human rights?
How can a company that is made up of people who live in the world take steps to destroy it?
Or even, less melodramatically, let's consider a large oil company that wants to drill in a bit of unspoiled wilderness with the inevitable effects that will ensue. Almost any person alive who is not directly going to profit from that drilling would presumably be against that drilling happening and rather that the company spent more money on finding an alternative site. However the company will say that its responsibility is to its shareholders and their profits and the board will take a decision that ought in theory to be personally reprehensible to all of them. Their main shareholders will probably be pension funds, run by people who probably in the main prefer that the wilderness remains unspoiled and yet they will say that their loyalty is to the companies whose pensions they are responsible for. The people who work for the companies whose funds are running the oil company would probably individually rather that the site remains undrilled and yet the drilling will happen although in some quite important ways nobody really wants it to.
I'm not sure who it was that likened the behaviour of international companies to that of psychos but it seems quite an apt analogy to me.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Whoops, I was getting my threads crossed - posted this in 'you are what you own' but it really belonged here:

Aaaanyway, what's more interesting here I think is your [Mr BoShambles's] equation of capitalism with a fairer, enlightened and more generally more humane society. Sure, early capitalism started to emerge in Renaissance and Enlightenment Europe, but consider how long it took from that time, and all the various social phases that Western culture went through - religious genocide, the trans-Atlantic slave trade, the agricultural and industrial revolutions, imperialist expansion - before we finally arrived, in the 20th century, at universal suffrage, the universal declaration of human rights, the welfare state and modern, liberal society (via a couple of World Wars). So while I'd agree that these good things have come about as part of a whole range of cultural changes, including the huge increase in wealth and resource availability that is part and parcel of capitalism and the technological advances that facilitated, and were facilitated by, capitalism, I'd like to point out that massive time lag even between the emergence of modern capitalism (early 19th century, more or less) and the life of wealth, leisure and freedom most people in the developed world enjoy. I'm not sure it's really possible to say that India and Bangladesh are in an 'equivalent' stage of industrial and economic development to any particular point in Britain's past, for example, but I think it's a bit shitty to tell third-world textile workers who work all hours in horrific conditions just to stay alive not to worry as life will be much better for their grandchildren.
 
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can I suggest some answers?

What I was alluding to was the way that companies have got out of hand. How can a company made up of people who (presumably) all (or at least mostly) individually believe in human rights act in a way that is contrary to human rights?
How can a company that is made up of people who live in the world take steps to destroy it?
Or even, less melodramatically, let's consider a large oil company that wants to drill in a bit of unspoiled wilderness with the inevitable effects that will ensue. Almost any person alive who is not directly going to profit from that drilling would presumably be against that drilling happening and rather that the company spent more money on finding an alternative site. However the company will say that its responsibility is to its shareholders and their profits and the board will take a decision that ought in theory to be personally reprehensible to all of them. Their main shareholders will probably be pension funds, run by people who probably in the main prefer that the wilderness remains unspoiled and yet they will say that their loyalty is to the companies whose pensions they are responsible for. The people who work for the companies whose funds are running the oil company would probably individually rather that the site remains undrilled and yet the drilling will happen although in some quite important ways nobody really wants it to.
I'm not sure who it was that likened the behaviour of international companies to that of psychos but it seems quite an apt analogy to me.

MONEY

money and what it might bring...material goods, living well, doing better than others etc and then it's ripples of greed, selfishness, a 'I've started so I'll finish/well we've come this far we can't stop now' approach, the possibility of more, kinda looking over the edge to see what might be there ..

it seems to me that the goal of capitalism (earning MORE, getting MORE, just MORE in general) is the problem...but to change that you need an entire value adjustment (which I don't think this system would be happy with as that is what keeps it alive) as really we should all just be happy with food, clothes, shelter and health (I'll leave it at that though there are more 'basics'). these are the basic values of many villagers across the globe (as alluded to in the quote that adruu c&p'd)

but then again is the pursuit of MORE something that has always been at the heart of humankind? an inevitability and therefore pointless to steer totally away from but perhaps honestly understood and respectfully controlled? or is something that flourishes when giving room to grow?

as an aside....when something (raw material, mineral, an abstract OBJECT which has potential...however you want to take that) is given more value than other people and morality...don't problems also begin from there?

human value and self-worth seems to be missing

I guess for me it comes down to...what's it all for? what's it all worth? to what end? what are we working for? or what are we living for? and my answers tend to be different to most man (and woman obv lol)

ya get me? :)

anyway thanks for this topic guys. Mr BoShambles, gek-opel, IdleRich, zhao, adruu...all good posts here
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
get away
Get a good job with more pay and your O.K...
:)
it seems to me that the goal of capitalism (earning MORE, getting MORE, just MORE in general) is the problem...
I think this is very true, and seems to relate to a fundamental property of the human condition, namely that once you've got your basic necessities covered (i.e. you aren't hungry, naked, homeless or sick) how much wealth you have seems to have very little to do with how happy you are - but paradoxically, almost everyone would like to be wealthier than they are now. It's as if merely having wealth is of no consequence; to be happy and fulfilled, you have to be constantly increasing your wealth.

Of course, not everyone is like this, and out of those it affects, some have it much worse than others...
 
Gek-Opel said:
Hmm yeah true but only through capitalism itself is this ever actually possible (ie to prevent the amelioration effects of a two sided battle)-- not through any form of socialist project or revolutionary revolt. The problem comes in imagining the impossible, which is what a genuinely new political system appears to be, under the conditions of capitalism itself. Hence the need to concentrate only on accelerating capitalism to a point where its side-effect of creating a sense of its own inevitability subsides. Communist revolutions were trapped in the conditions of capitalism, as well as being confused with nationalistic struggles against imperialist occupiers or industrial expansion...

The lack of anyone being in control, its diffuse nature, the way it is successful as a system because of how it mirrors basic human drives makes it impossible to attack as you would any normal physical enemy or political body.

The key problem with capitalism is its ability, as a by-product of the aggregate of billions of tiny interactions, without anyone in control, to warp time itself and place fundamental, tho invisible, blocks on the ability of people to think otherwise, to think the unthinkable, to be genuinely innovative. But because of this problem you cannot think after-capital inside it... its totally paradoxical to imagine that you can! But in many other ways there are a lot of quite interesting and useful aspects to capitalism- its ability to potentially disrupt and dismantle the state of course being the primary example. It is as much the nation state which is at fault as capitalism itself....

It is paradoxical because capitalism in its current phase is more than just a system by which we allow economic interaction to be regulated. It is a life-world, a time-line of its very own, bending and warping perception (of narrative, of the possible) in infinitely subtle ways (ie- rampant post-modernism)... it is true that you can sit there and pipe-dream yourself some alternative systems. But these will just consist of some shuffling of the cards already dealt.

No this is all perfectly accurate. There are no guarantees, and history tells us that such projects frequently lead rapidly into terror. However, the alternative is the ossification of humanity itself.

Some excellent points, Gek-opel (with apologies for the concatenation-editing in the quotes above].

What both the neo-liberal capitalist theologians and the 'third way' neo-socialist 'capitalism with a human rights friendly face' tolerant multi-culturalists have in common is their inability to perceive capitalism as an inherently abstract force, a replicant hyper-virus that resists all attempts at both representation and sanitisation. Indeed, reactions to it (from both political stripes) are constitutive of it: as capital is ruthlessly structural, the numerous and diverse retreats from it (from nationalism to racism, from traditional religion to new-ageism, from reactionary nostalgia to rural organicism) become its very conditions of possibility, the very ground (re-territorialisation) on which it perpetuates itself.

Capitalism persists (much like the Death Drive) and intensifies precisely because neither capitalists nor ostensible anti-capitalists are capable of taking it at its purist, at its very word: the radical universalising (or globalising) tendencies of its rampant de-territorialising, which are everywhere met with (following Deleuze-Guattari's incisive account of capitalism) a compensatory re-territorialising, a retreat into nationalism, racism, ethnicism, cultural obscuranticism and nostalgia, theistic fetishism, a retreat into a naturalised 'class' (instead of a progressive universalist proletariat there is a regressively ossified working class), solipistic narcissism and sociopathic withdrawal, etc, all of which appear to be simultaneously intensifying as capitalism spreads.

Ironically, then, it is capitalism's radical/progressive elements (anti-organicist, anti-egotistical, anti-identitarian, anti-patriarchal, fragmenting of Oedipus) which need to be emphasised (the "accelerating capitalism" you refer to above), insisted upon - via overidentification strategies, for instance - to the exclusion of the reactionary tendencies that facilitate its continuation, in order for it to be obliterated. Capitalism is unreformable, and all attempts to reform it (eg. via welfare state simultaneous with fascism in the economically depressed 1930s) only strengthen it. Equally, the personalisation of its faults - blaming it all on particular elites and/or individuals (world 'leaders' like Bush, Sarcozy, Brown; fat capitalist bastards like Gates, Soros, Murdoch, Bono, etc) is futile: they are bland puppets of viral capital, not its cause or source. Believing that if we could just get rid of all the greedy and nasty bastards in power that constitute the ruling elite, then everything would be so much nicer and fairer and friendly, is not only deluded, it is the predominant ideological mode of liberal capitalism (and, of course, it ultimately runs the risk of leading to all kinds of twisted and delirial conspiracy theories, like for instance those now widely accepted about 9/11, and very persuasive they undoubtedly are, all too persuasive, as this architect's polemic demonstrates).

I mentioned theistic fetish above as an example of a reaction against capitalism that has the paradoxical effect of further enabling it: this is one of the most powerful 'theological' features of capitalism in Western societies. Two examples:

(1) Money. Everyone knows - appealing to the ideology of 'commonsense' - that money, currency, is just bits of paper, just digits in cyberspace, of no intrinsic or essentialist value, etc, really all just a meaningless, worthless, useless nothingness. Yet none of us actually believe this, we disavow this knowledge, we act as if it somehow has magical qualities, consequently giving it the same structural function as a religious fetish.

(2) Inner Self/Ideal Ego/Self Actualisation. The basis of contemporary new-ageism, the extra-ideological retreat from the ravages of unrestrained neo-liberal capitalism, the notion that no matter how crazy and insane and unjust the modern world may be under capitalism, the daily oppressiveness of work, commute, schedule, politeness, transaction, poverty, war, global warming and pollution, etc, none of it really matters ultimately, because we have our own (imaginary now identified with the real) very special, very unique, very transcendent, very magically other-dimensional, little precious 'selves' into which we can reassuringly retire at the end of a hard capitalist day. So convalescing and preparing us all over again for the next, same, day ...
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
(2) Inner Self/Ideal Ego/Self Actualisation. The basis of contemporary new-ageism, the extra-ideological retreat from the ravages of unrestrained neo-liberal capitalism, the notion that no matter how crazy and insane and unjust the modern world may be under capitalism, the daily oppressiveness of work, commute, schedule, politeness, transaction, poverty, war, global warming and pollution, etc, none of it really matters ultimately, because we have our own (imaginary now identified with the real) very special, very unique, very transcendent, very magically other-dimensional, little precious 'selves' into which we can reassuringly retire at the end of a hard capitalist day. So convalescing and preparing us all over again for the next, same, day ...

BS - it sounds like you should move out of London. Personally, I don't feel unique, my job is never oppressive and I am more likely to be driven insane by a quiz machine withholding my winnings than global warming or some far-flung war.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Nice post, and I do agree with your point that it is largely useless to pin blame on specific leaders, but do you deny the existence of a ruling class? Or is it beside the point that they exist, as they too are merely organs of capital? I'm not sure I want to take it to that level, as I still see value in pulling back the curtains on the power elite (and once again I'm reminded of Lombardi's conspiracy diagrams). Which isn't to say executing all the Soroses and Bushes would somehow end things.

And yet I'm also reminded current cultural production that seems to revel in the obscene excesses of the ruling class (or at least their dyed-blonde daughters)... That all the resentment this potentially breeds (and I'm not all that convinced it breeds much) actually props up the system, routing class anger through a sort of misogynist-lust steam valve -- don't strike, just fantasize about hate-fucking Paris Hilton.

And while I'm deeply sympathetic to psychoanalytic critiques of capitalism, I do see where the "vulgar" Marxists are coming from -- is there no use in the old frameworks of class systems, trade unions, strikes, etc? Do they do nothing but prop up the larger system?
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
It's as if merely having wealth is of no consequence; to be happy and fulfilled, you have to be constantly increasing your wealth.

I'm surprised that people are confused by people's need for continual increase. Is it not the case with all our natural appetites - for food, drink, sex and so on - that we are only ever temporarily sated?

You forget that even those of us who aren't 'going hungry' still become hungry every day. We don't become divorced from these urges once we reach a certain level of economic stability.

Furthermore, the more of each appetite we have (provided they are not morbid), the healthier we are.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
I'm surprised that people are confused by people's need for continual increase. Is it not the case with all our natural appetites - for food, drink, sex and so on - that we are only ever temporarily sated?

You forget that even those of us who aren't 'going hungry' still become hungry every day. We don't become divorced from these urges once we reach a certain level of economic stability.


Becoming "hungry again" has nothing to do with the planned accumulation of surplus value and its subsequent destruction through cycles of planned obsolescence, war, and waste. This biological essentialist argument will not wash.

Furthermore, the more of each appetite we have (provided they are not morbid), the healthier we are.

Nice escape hatch there, but are you so sure desires can be free of "morbidity"? Freud, Bataille, and Marcuse (among others) might beg to differ.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Becoming "hungry again" has nothing to do with the planned accumulation of surplus value and its subsequent destruction through cycles of planned obsolescence, war, and waste. This biological essentialist argument will not wash.

Are you not essentially biological? Are you pure thought, floating in the ether? I congratulate you if you have achieved this rare feat. ;)

As you are biological, I assume that your desires are of the body or of the mind, and essentially driven by two things - the need for replenishment (driven by physical necessity in the body and by the wish to make good the deficiencies of memory in the mind) and the need for novelty (to maximise our pleasures).

Maximising our pleasures is why we indulge our desires to excess. Lack of novelty is why doing so usually brings ever-decreasing returns

We are driven by our physical and intellectual appetites to create, destroy and create again. This is essentially human and there's nothing that can be done to change it.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Are you not essentially biological? Are you pure thought, floating in the ether? I congratulate you if you have achieved this rare feat. ;)

No, I am not something purely and ontologically biological. Who I am is made up of a variety of factors, some biological, linguistic, cultural, etc. You simply CANNOT boil human motivation down to some intrinsic biological imperative, it's impossible to prove, completely idological, and intellectually suspect.

As you are biological, I assume that your desires are of the body or of the mind, and essentially driven by two things - the need for replenishment (driven by physical necessity in the body and by the wish to make good the deficiencies of memory in the mind) and the need for novelty (to maximise our pleasures).

Maximising our pleasures is why we indulge our desires to excess. Lack of novelty is why doing so usually brings ever-decreasing returns

What assumptions! Do we then assume that our desires arise sui generis from our essential biological core, immune from language, from culture, from any consideration but some primal instinct?

And since when has novelty (which you haven't well defined, even though it seems to occupy an incredibly important space in your framework here) played such a huge role in the biological needs? I rather think the "novelty" you discuss is a recent development of overproduction in the West. Most people (and animals) are just trying to get enough to eat.

We are driven by our physical and intellectual appetites to create, destroy and create again. This is essentially human and there's nothing that can be done to change it.

By the way, even if this is true, what the FUCK does this have to do with anything? This tells us nothing of our culture and society, but what does is looking at how large corporations manipulate desires and urges, filtering them into neurotic, pathological behavior and stupid wasteful products while causing literally billions to starve. If you like to think of this as some sort of fate (biological determinism perhaps), then I have little else to say to you.
 
mixed_biscuits said:
BS - it sounds like you should move out of London.

You're attempting to personify/territorialise the discussion. I haven't been anywhere near London in seven years, and never lived there (apart from a three-month summer sojourne as a student]. This is cyberspace, not your living-room.

mixed_biscuits said:
Personally, I don't feel unique.

Hilarious: if you don't 'feel' unique, then what's your insistence on the "personally" for?

Nice post, and I do agree with your point that it is largely useless to pin blame on specific leaders, but do you deny the existence of a ruling class? Or is it beside the point that they exist, as they too are merely organs of capital? I'm not sure I want to take it to that level, as I still see value in pulling back the curtains on the power elite (and once again I'm reminded of Lombardi's conspiracy diagrams). Which isn't to say executing all the Soroses and Bushes would somehow end things.

Class antagonism is very real, is ontological to our social reality, so, of course, elites do indeed exist, and micro-political struggles with a universalist focus against them are important, but its a double move: Blair replaced Thatcher only to turn out even worse,("The King is dead. Long live the King" etc) because those genuinely believing that New Labour would undo/interrupt the ravages of Thatcherism forgot about the intact underlying structures, that it is parliamentary democracy itself which is the political form of unrestrained capitalism. Ejecting specific elites is just musical chairs, just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic in the absence of dismantling the socio-political structures that produce them. Ignoring the latter changes nothing, as there's no shortage of eager candidates for the vacated positions.

And yet I'm also reminded current cultural production that seems to revel in the obscene excesses of the ruling class (or at least their dyed-blonde daughters)... That all the resentment this potentially breeds (and I'm not all that convinced it breeds much) actually props up the system, routing class anger through a sort of misogynist-lust steam valve -- don't strike, just fantasize about hate-fucking Paris Hilton.

But the vast majority of those who 'hate' Paris Hilton are doing so to DEFEND the capitalist status quo ("Why doesn't she get a proper job, like the rest of us, and earn her keep!?" ---that's the ultimate pro-capitalist-ideological statement, whereas the REFUSAL to work is the ultimate anti-capitalist statement). And of course those who 'love' her do so only in resentful antagonistic response to the haters! What's crap about Hilton isn't her inherited wealth (that's the NORM in capitalist society, where most well-off people inherit their wealth and security), its that she's a total - and unattractive - bore. What pisses the chattering classes off about her is that she exposes their own guilt, their own values (she's the end-product of capitalism towards which they aspire but cannot admit). I really don't see any difference between Hilton and the VAST MAJORITY of celebs and many other public figures: what's the difference between Hilton and George Bush, or Nicole Kidman, or Hilary Clinton? Sweet fuck all (though at least Hilton brings this to our attention, and so serves a useful purpose, unlike the other assholes :)).
 

mixed_biscuits

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Well, our philosophies are fundamentally at odds, as I believe that the natural encloses all that is 'cultural' - that is, it is a solecism to claim that there is a thing called 'culture' that lies outside of nature. 'Culture' is our natures (which themselves, are clearly changeable to some extent) made manifest over time through interaction, to ourselves. Convince me of a clear-cut distinction between Nature and Culture and I might begin to understand your way of thinking.

I would say that our primal desires are the main (and, given my 'culture is a subset of nature' belief, only) motors behind our actions. By way of illustration, I invite you to 'be untaught' your hunger or disentangle yourself from your libido without taking a little damage. ;)

'Novelty' = 'something new.' What this 'something new' is is determined by he or she who is seeking or experiencing it.

Putting an evolutionary hat on, I would say that the search for novelty per se is adaptive. Given that one's local sphere of experience tends to be more limited than that which lies beyond it, those who sought out new experience, dared to eat food of different kinds, struggled to migrate were more successful than those who sat where they were, through apathy or desperation.

You talk about corporations 'manipulating' desires and urges. Do they create these desires and urges or merely exploit them? Give me an example of a 'created desire.' ;)
 
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