If not capitalism then what exactly?

vimothy

yurp
Generalities are imporant, so are specifics, her we are talking about a specific case that has arisen which appears to be an example of exploitation.

This specific example is relevant mostly in its ability to illuminate the general trends, IMO. Anyway,

In the sense that it is the lowest legal wage.

But it is not the lowest wage by any means. And you still haven't told me what the average wage for un-skilled labour is in Bangladesh.

But this is a very specific case. You said it was in H&M's power so who precisely would lose out if H&M insisted that their supplier paid the necessary living wage of £2.00 per day instead of £1.13 (or whatever the figures were)?

Well, again, this is a specific case, the ins and outs of which I am only briefly familiar with. That said, artificially protecting manufaturing industries within a developing country creates a two tier economy with a sub-group of workers in export industry earning wages in excess of the local average. The price of labour to these industries would be above its opportunity cost. Their profitability and labour intensity would be reduced. Manufacturing growth would be slower. Unemployment would be higher. Migration to the cities would slow, and as a result labour shortages would not incerase the rural wage. Congrats, H&M, you would have succeeded in salving the consciences of your rich customers, and also worsening the conditions of those you claim to be helping.

You're already familiar with these arguments though, right?

You know what opposed means, I gave a definition of a sweatshop in my last post.
For the twentieth time I haven't said anything about not trading.

Aaarghhhghgh! What the fuck are we talking about? You haven't said anything about not trading, no, but there are plenty from the same camp who have. They use the same arguments, in fact, which are all variants on yours. We should impose tarriffs, we shouldn't trade, we should set up fair trade schemes, we should create international labour standards, etc.

And we are talking about trade, trade is the active element in this situation, since it is certainly not within H&M's powers to raise the opportunity cost of labour in Bangladesh. This revolves around trade, and it is trade that stands accused. Trade, trade, trade.

As for "opposed" I hope you know what I mean. I don't like the conditions of life for the developing world. But I think that any of the responses suggested by those who think it either the fault or responsibility of developed world importers would merely perpetuate the conditions that they decry. And that includes you. Thus I am "opposed" to sweatshops, yes, but I recognise that the road to wealth and prosperity leads through precisely these grounds. Ask the Chinese. It should be obvious, stifle manufacturing and you will stifle growth. Stifle growth and you will perpetuate poverty.

I think that when a company is happy to exploit the lack of human rights in a sweatshop to reduce prices in the west they are certainly making it more likely that they will continue.
What if every western company demanded that its suppliers paid it's staff enough to live on, do you think that would be wrong?

I don't know about wrong. I do think that that would be "bad" from the perspective of the welfare of the developing world as a whole, and from the persepctive of the developed world as a whole.

What if it doesn't?

Then it's all fine and we should go ahead and do it. Economists have been getting it completely wrong for over a hundred years. And I'll chuck out all my books and join Christian Aid.
 
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vimothy

yurp
Not at all, I'm telling you what some firms think is best for them not what is best for them.

So firms only think this, and it isn't actually true?

You've said that firms must underpay workers to increase their profits - and this is part of your criticism of "naked capitalism", i.e. workers must be protected from firms, because the natural tendency of a firm in an unfettered capitalist system is to do this.

Therefore successful firms will be firms that underpay their workers.

Or what am I missing?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well, again, this is a specific case, the ins and outs of which I am only briefly familiar with. That said, artificially protecting manufaturing industries within a developing country creates a two tier economy with a sub-group of workers in export industry earning wages in excess of the local average. The price of labour to these industries would be above its opportunity cost. Their profitability and labour intensity would be reduced. Manufacturing growth would be slower. Unemployment would be higher. Migration to the cities would slow, and as a result labour shortages would not incerase the rural wage. Congrats, H&M, you would have succeeded in salving the consciences of your rich customers, and also worsening the conditions of those you claim to be helping.

You're already familiar with these arguments though, right?

I don't accept these arguments at all. I've heard them before and it just sounds too much like people saying "We're paying these workers peanuts because it's for their own good...I mean, we'd really like to pay them more, but we wouldn't want to destroy the local economy, would we?".
Firstly, if some workers have more money than they had before, they might take the opportunity to spend some of their surplus income, mightn't they? In local shops and other businesses, for instance. So not only the factory workers now earning the princely sum of two quid a day are better off, but everyone who owns a business of some kind is better off, too. As are their employees. Since people are earning and spending more, more taxes can be raised, which can be spent on public services. Such services would include schools - schools that local kids can attend, since their parents no longer need send them to work in factories - so in a few years there is an educated workforce who can do better jobs than unskilled labour, and earn more money as a result. Perhaps some of them will start businesses, or go to University.

No doubt you've got some very clever economical argument as to why it's in third-world laborers' interests to be kept at a subsistence salary, though.
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
"And you still haven't told me what the average wage for un-skilled labour is in Bangladesh."
I don't know what it is but one would tend to assume it was above the minimum.

"Their profitability and labour intensity would be reduced."
Not if H&M were putting in more money at the top.

"As for "opposed" I hope you know what I mean. I don't like the conditions of life for the developing world. But I think that any of the responses suggested by those who think it either the fault or responsibility of developed world importers would merely perpetuate the conditions that they decry"
They are already perpetuating them, that's the point.

"I don't know about wrong. I do think that that would be "bad" from the perspective of the welfare of the developing world as a whole, and from the persepctive of the developed world as a whole."
I don't. If a system depends on paying people less than they need to live because that's just a market discrepancy that will be ironed out in a few hundred years then the sytem is wrong. Just saying "they must be sacrificed to the greater good" doesn't really wash, especially when there is no real evidence that this greater good will ever materialise.
As a matter of interest, are you against minimum wages in general?

So firms only think this, and it isn't actually true?
You've said that firms must underpay workers to increase their profits - and this is part of your criticism of "naked capitalism", i.e. workers must be protected from firms, because the natural tendency of a firm in an unfettered capitalist system is to do this.
Therefore successful firms will be firms that underpay their workers.
I've no idea whether it's true or not. That firms tend to do it however is clear (look at H&M) therefore workers ought to be protected. It makes no difference to a worker if he is being underpaid by a successful or unsuccessful firm. It's certainly not a hole in the argument to say that firms that underpay tend to fail which is what I think you're implying.
 

vimothy

yurp
I don't accept these arguments at all. I've heard them before and it just sounds too much like people saying "We're paying these workers peanuts because it's for their own good...I mean, we'd really like to pay them more, but we wouldn't want to destroy the local economy, would we?".
Firstly, if some workers have more money than they had before, they might take the opportunity to spend some of their surplus income, mightn't they? In local shops and other businesses, for instance. So not only the factory workers now earning the princely sum of two quid a day are better off, but everyone who owns a business of some kind is better off, too. As are their employees. Since people are earning and spending more, more taxes can be raised, which can be spent on public services. Such services would include schools - schools that local kids can attend, since their parents no longer need send them to work in factories - so in a few years there is an educated workforce who can do better jobs that unskilled labour, and earn more money as a result. Perhaps some of them will start businesses, or go to University.

But what you add to individual labourers in terms of wage increase, you remove from factories in terms of labour intensity. Right? So although some workers would have more money, there would be less workers working and the total amount of money entering the local economy (whether as tax or expenditure) as a result of exports would immediately remain the same. Then, for the reasons I outlined, it would go down, or more accurately, its rate of growth would be slower.

Do away with your appeal to protectionism, though, and you've outlined a pretty solid case for sourcing cheap goods in the developing world.

No doubt you've got some very clever economical argument as to why it's in third-world laborers' interests to be kept at a subsistence salary, though.

Actually, I rather think my arguments represent what is the best way for third-world-labourers to move out of subsistence wages. China, anyone?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Vimothy, what the hell is 'labour intensity'? Do you mean people work harder when you pay them less, or what?
No-one's advocating paying a higher wage to some workers while reducing the total number of workers, thereby causeing mass unemployment. If a company and its shareholders are prepared to take less profit, and/or its consumers are prepared to pay more for the goods, then the workers can be paid more without any of them being laid off, right? In fact, a higher hourly rate could mean workers being paid the same for working fewer hours, with more workers being taken on to maintain productivity, which would therefore reduce unemployment.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Vimothy, what the hell is 'labour intensity'? Do you mean people work harder when you pay them less, or what?"
I think what he is saying is that if a factory has a fixed and finite amount of money to pay people and it raises wages then it will have to pay less people. Therefore less work will be done (and less work per dollar or whatever, which is presumably labour intensity). Also, obviously the amount of money entering the local system will be the same.
Of course if the multi-national was willing to allow some of its profits to be used to increase that fixed amount of money then none of this is true.
 

h-crimm

Well-known member
C as an ideology

Capitalism doesn't say you should make lots of money, it just says "If you want to make lots of money, here's how to do it". (well, sort of).

vimothy: do you think you express capitalism ideologically by representing statements of capitalist theory as moral imperitives?

as i understand it, vim implies:

H&M must maximise profit for the good of rural workers and other factory workers in the developing world. This is the ideological moral requirement.
There's is a moral obligation to make lots of money.

probably you don't think that way, but its a nice way to justify minimised wages to normative hippies, right?

Doesnt society have at least a little bit of capitalism as ideology? Where poor people are identified as immoral or when rich people are immune from moral criticism?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Of course if the multi-national was willing to allow some of its profits to be used to increase that fixed amount of money then none of this is true.
This, of course, is my central point: a reduction in the total profits made by the owners of the company and/or an increased price to the consumer to pay for a net increase in wage costs.
 

vimothy

yurp
I don't know what it is but one would tend to assume it was above the minimum.

I don't think so. That's pretty naive, IMHO. It would suggest that workers are working for less than the opportunity cost (to them) of their labour, which doesn't make any sense at all.

Not if H&M were putting in more money at the top.

Of course they would have a negative impact on labour intensity. It's not a question of whether we want that outcome, but whether it would happen. You and Mr Tea are living in fantasy worlds.

They are already perpetuating them, that's the point.

No that's not the point. Read what Mr Tea just wrote. Export-led growth is a dependable method of poverty reduction. It has happened before and it will happen again, many times.

I don't. If a system depends on paying people less than they need to live because that's just a market discrepancy that will be ironed out in a few hundred years then the sytem is wrong. Just saying "they must be sacrificed to the greater good" doesn't really wash, especially when there is no real evidence that this greater good will ever materialise.

It doesn't take a few hundred years. And I've given you plenty of examples of export-led growth leading to increased living standards and incomes: China, Japan, South Korea, etc. Can you give me any examples of export growth leading to a reduction in living standards?

As a matter of interest, are you against minimum wages in general?

Not necessarily - it depends on the circumstances. However, I'm against foreign states, firms or interest groups imposing them from the top-down on developing world countries.

I've no idea whether it's true or not. That firms tend to do it however is clear (look at H&M) therefore workers ought to be protected. It makes no difference to a worker if he is being underpaid by a successful or unsuccessful firm. It's certainly not a hole in the argument to say that firms that underpay tend to fail which is what I think you're implying.

It's not true. Marx was wrong.

Firms buy goods at the best price they can find. Producers of those goods pay the workers whatever the wage is for labour in that country. That's it.

H&M are not underpaying workers. They are buying goods from a country where the people are very poor, and therefore where the cost of production is very cheap.

And I'm not saying that firms who underpay tend to fail, I'm saying that profits aren't the result of exploitation (in the Marxist sense, the underpayment of workers for their labour) and that globalisation/globalised capitalism doesn't encourage a race to the bottom, impoverishing workers as producers seek to undercut one another to gain an advantage.
 

vimothy

yurp
Labour-intensive

No-one's advocating paying a higher wage to some workers while reducing the total number of workers

This is some kind of joke, right? That's precisely what you're advocating, regardless of your intent.

thereby causeing mass unemployment.

Increased unemployment

If a company and its shareholders are prepared to take less profit, and/or its consumers are prepared to pay more for the goods, then the workers can be paid more without any of them being laid off, right?

Er, no (IMHO). It's riddled with problems. I've outlinded some of them. For e.g, which workers?
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
The prime fallacy of this kind of corporate behviour is that they are not shitting in their own backyard. Well the whole world is our backyard more than ever now, everything is connected and companies (no, everyone) needs to get the message that self interest is interlinked with the self interest of the whole planet.

What's the point of being rich in world that's dying and full of miserable bastards?

Oh wait, I know the answer to that one: It's better than being poor right? :p
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Labour-intensive
This is some kind of joke, right? That's precisely what you're advocating, regardless of your intent.
Of course it's not a fucking joke. Look, let me spell it out in words of one syllable or fewer:

* a factory in Pooristan employs a hundred workers on, say, £1 a day.
* The wage cost, to the company that owns the factory (or sub-contracts to the factory or whatever, it's not an important distinction), is therefore £100 per day.
* The shareholders of Company PLC go collectively mad and threaten to sell all their shares unless the workers are paid £2 a day, without any redundancies being made.
* So the wage costs rises to £200, which is bourne by the shareholders themselves, as Company PLC is making less profit - or they persuade consumers to spend a tiny bit more on each Product (since a single worker can make many Products in a day).

What, in this situtation, is going to lead to
Increased unemployment
?

Your problem is you're so wedded to the capitalist ideal that you can't even imagine a company that would voluntarily reduce its profit margin in order to fork out higher wage costs.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"I don't think so. That's pretty naive, IMHO. It would suggest that workers are working for less than the opportunity cost (to them) of their labour, which doesn't make any sense at all"
Unless they had to travel further to get to another job or the best ones were taken or a million other reasons.

"Of course they would have a negative impact on labour intensity"
If you mean that H&M would be paying more for the labour then yes, by definition. But I think that's a good thing obviously.

It doesn't take a few hundred years. And I've given you plenty of examples of export-led growth leading to increased living standards and incomes: China, Japan, South Korea, etc. Can you give me any examples of export growth leading to a reduction in living standards?
You keep suggesting that I'm somehow against (variously) trade, export, globalisation etc I am simply against paying people less than they need to live.

"Not necessarily - it depends on the circumstances"
I am surprised.

"It's not true. Marx was wrong."
Oh. So what?

"H&M are not underpaying workers"
They are.

"And I'm not saying that firms who underpay tend to fail, I'm saying that profits aren't the result of exploitation (in the Marxist sense, the underpayment of workers for their labour) and that globalisation/globalised capitalism doesn't encourage a race to the bottom, impoverishing workers as producers seek to undercut one another to gain an advantage."
Fine, but if you can underpay workers you do. Look at gangmasters in the uk who basically have trapped workers from China or Eastern Europe. They are paying them a subsistence wage (just like H&M) because they can (just like H&M until they got found-out and then presumably they will change). In another words, at least sometimes it pays people to exploit and capitalism tells you to do what pays.
 

vimothy

yurp
vimothy: do you think you express capitalism ideologically by representing statements of capitalist theory as moral imperitives?

There is an overlap. For instance,

as i understand it, vim implies:

H&M must maximise profit for the good of rural workers and other factory workers in the developing world. This is the ideological moral requirement.
There's is a moral obligation to make lots of money.

I don't agree that H&M must maximise profits for the good of rural workers and other factory workers in the country in question. However, if H&M (or whoever else) impose their own labour standards on developing world industries, or seek to establish artificial, subsidised and protected industries within the developing world, then it will be to thhe detriment of the countries effected, as well as to our own.

If you think that actually developing the developing world is a moral good, then it's a moral good, regardless of how it comes about. H&M can make profits or losses regardless.

probably you don't think that way, but its a nice way to justify minimised wages to normative hippies, right?

Ha!

Doesnt society have at least a little bit of capitalism as ideology? Where poor people are identified as immoral or when rich people are immune from moral criticism?

Sorry, you've lost me there.
 

vimothy

yurp
The prime fallacy of this kind of corporate behviour is that they are not shitting in their own backyard. Well the whole world is our backyard more than ever now, everything is connected and companies (no, everyone) needs to get the message that self interest is interlinked with the self interest of the whole planet.

No shit
 

vimothy

yurp
You keep suggesting that I'm somehow against (variously) trade, export, globalisation etc I am simply against paying people less than they need to live.

I've got to rush off home. But I just want to say: no I'm bloody well not, so give it a rest. We're talking here about something specific and hopefully trying to generalise something more conclusive. I have not said, AFAIK, that you are against any of these things. I'm saying that trade is a method of raising income levels and reducing poverty in the developing world. I think that's a fact. You might not llike the conditions in factories over there, but that is the way people live. My position is that free trade will do more to ameliorate these conditions than imposing external labour standards or union-ising industries.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
H&M workers here make considerably less than $10/hour. I would guess somewhere around $6.
 

h-crimm

Well-known member
However, if H&M (or whoever else) impose their own labour standards on developing world industries, or seek to establish artificial, subsidised and protected industries within the developing world, then it will be to thhe detriment of the countries effected, as well as to our own.

My counter example for this claim would be southern europe in the 70s. Migrant workers from new EC countries were subject to exiting EC labour laws and recieved much improved wages, their working conditions were far from dreamy but they were economically elevated compared to the past. The implementation of EC legislation in the new members enforced an artificial, subsidised and protected way of working for the workers returning home.

The result of this big-state nannying approach from France and Germany was to turn Spain and Italy into massive economies (Greece and Portugal have done pretty well). The only country contributing migrants which didnt develop was Turkey which being outside the EC failed to get the imposition of our own labour standards.

If you think that actually developing the developing world is a moral good, then it's a moral good, regardless of how it comes about. H&M can make profits or losses regardless.

I think in your defense of capitalism you're picking the moral good than we hippies want to hear about. And that capitalism is equally able to claim to represent any other moral good the audience wants. AG Farben's capitalism didnt improve the lives of poles in 1940 (neither by accident nor deliberately) but it did claim to support the accepted moral values of the time. United fruit was moral because it supported anti-communism in south america.
Demanding that the lowest wages be paid to workers may or may not improve conditions for locals in the long run. The evidence of japan, korea and southern europe points to the idea that export economies can improve the local conditions, but to claim this is purely capitalisms doing ignores significance social, legal and historical preconditions which may not exist and which capitalism is not able to generate in remaining underdeveloped economies.
Capitalist imperatives won't do it alone.

I also think you undervalue imminent suffering in the name of speed of development. If development is slowed a little but conditions are more bearable perhaps this is better for the integral of actual people involved. Also: if conditions are made a little worse but development is more sustainable this could be better for people involved. Our moral problem with capitalism is that we have is that there is no way to immediately express these human preferables in a way which capital will understand.

You do accept that capitalism may not automatically make the most people happy most of the time (for example: if it wipes us off the face of the earth)?

Sorry, you've lost me there.

The last line was more aimed towards MrTea, i'm trying to say that "chav the musical", the fact that poor people without health insurance die daily in the US without a moral outcry, the fact that tax avoidance isnt classed as tax evasion and is far easier than claiming benefits to which you are entitled, etc... seem to me to be indications of capitalism being able to act as an ideology which can generate its own morality for a society, just as effectivley as the Torah. Although it can equally be subservient to another ideology.
 
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vimothy

yurp
Of course it's not a fucking joke. Look, let me spell it out in words of one syllable or fewer:

* a factory in Pooristan employs a hundred workers on, say, £1 a day.
* The wage cost, to the company that owns the factory (or sub-contracts to the factory or whatever, it's not an important distinction), is therefore £100 per day.
* The shareholders of Company PLC go collectively mad and threaten to sell all their shares unless the workers are paid £2 a day, without any redundancies being made.
* So the wage costs rises to £200, which is bourne by the shareholders themselves, as Company PLC is making less profit - or they persuade consumers to spend a tiny bit more on each Product (since a single worker can make many Products in a day).

Thanks for putting this into words of one syllable or less, but I think there are still a few problems.

First let's imagine we decide to up the pay to your workers in Pooristan. There are three levels at which the increased costs could be born:
1. The factory owner, i.e. the firm directly responsible for hiring the labour and making the exported goods.
2. The MNC, i.e. the firm responsible for importing and selling the goods from Pooristan.
3. The consumer, i.e. the individual responsible for buying the imported goods from Poorsitan.
(You might claim that these are not important distinctions. Obviously they are, and you are weakening your argument by trying to confuse matters as you blend different groups together. The importer doesn't pay the wages of the labourers, he pays for the goods he's importing).

So, if the factory owner pays the increased wages directly out of his own pocket, his labour costs (what Marx would call "variable capital") increase twofold without any concomitant rise in profit. (The cost of labour, by the way, is very closely related to its productivity. Developed world workers get paid a lot more than those in the developing world, but they are also a lot more productive). Will the factory owner simply double his outgoings to labour, and not reduce his workforce? No, obviously not, because he won't be able to afford to, unless you believe that he has unlimited amounts of money and is not really driven by the "profit-motive" at all. The idea that as labour costs go up, labour intensity goes down (because the amount of labour that people can afford to buy is less) should be non-controversial. It's the standard argument against the minimum wage. You might not think that it's sufficient reason to abolish the minimum wage, and argue that the benefits outway the losses, but you should at least acknowledge that it's there.

If the MNC (or whoever) agrees to pay more on every item to cover the rise in labour cost to the sector or firms in question, because the marginal cost of producing said items will have gone up, then its own costs will have risen dramatically without any increase in profit. Do you think it will just continue to buy the same amount of goods from the same producer, even though they now cost a lot more? Of course not, as with the local factory owner, the MNC doesn't have unlimited amounts of cash lying around and maximising profit is its raison d'etre. The company will have to incorporate the price rise. It will say item x now costs whatever it did plus the rise in labour costs. Our returns on every item sold are now much less (economy of scale), so we are less interested in selling them. Other things make more money, so they are our focus. The "fair trade" products might be a nice bit of personalised feel-good fluff for our customers, but they are not profitable and will not be making very much money for the company. There is less incentive for the company to sell them, and so there is less incentive for the company to buy them. Therefore, and quite naturally, the company orders less products from the more expensive protected industry because the potential profits are less. Because labour has risen in price, demand for it, again quite naturally, has fallen.

Or the MNC might decide to pass the increased cost on to the consumer (which is, of course, what normally happens when a company's costs rise. Incidentally, by the same logic, the importing companies or MNCs could choose to do this at any time, regardless of the issue of labour standards - "I know, let's make less money by paying more for everything than the market rate, and sell them all at a cheaper price"). So, the consumer has to pay a higher price for the goods than he did in the past. Will the consumer continue to buy the same amount of the same good at the newly inflated prices? No, he won't, which is why we are in this situation in the first place. People want more for less, and the way that big retail companies work is by selling lots of items really cheaply with little individual profit, but adding up to hopefully large turnovers. People will buy less of the good because it is not as affordable, so the company will buy less from its producers and the producers will be able to afford to employ less labourers in the factory.

There is also the issue of profit. Let's say you are this factory owner, and your profits have gone down because the cost of labour has risen dramatically. Your factory is, in effect, much less productive. And in the absence of profits, you have nothing (or a lot less) to invest back into your firm. How will you be able to reach the same level of productivity you hit before the imposition of foreign labour standards? Profit feeds back, so that as you make more money, you can invest it in technologies or methods that help you to up your productivity and so to increase your profit. This is presisely how you fight poverty, by increasing the size of the pie (more outputs for your inputs) and developing your industries to make them more competitive in the market. The same is also true for the foreign MNC or importing firm. Perhaps a firm is expanding on the basis of its cheap third world goods. If it keeps expanding by increasing its producitvity (doing more for less), it will be able to grow its organisation and buy even more cheap third world goods, helping the economies of those countries, to say nothing of its own. If you create a protected sector, you de-incentivise this because the sector in question knows that it is protected. Obviously, here we're talking about labour in a particular industry, not the industry as a whole, but the point still stands. The sector will be made to depend upon the developed world to pay premium prices for its goods. It will not be able to sell them in its own internal markets, because the costs of production will be too high. And when the market changes and they're left looking anachronistic (for whatever reason), they'll be screwed. Things like fair trade are fine for the lucky few (members of the cartel) in the short term, but bad for anyone else trying to compete. Good for price distortions, inefficiency, overproduction, bypassing real market reform and creating an insider/outsider economy. Bad for the long term economic future of the country.

Is that an idealistic argument?

Your problem is you're so wedded to the capitalist ideal that you can't even imagine a company that would voluntarily reduce its profit margin in order to fork out higher wage costs.

I find this line from you and IdleRich to be both pointless and annoying. "The problem is you're so wedded to the mixed-market ideal and your wrong-headed notions of incentives and effects that you can't imagine that foreign intervention into a country's economy to artificially set prices could have a detrimental effect." If you have an argument, make it. Either your idea is better, or mine is. It's not a question of who has the biggest capitalist cojones - you're the one talking bollocks here, mate.
 
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