Roiling football blather

[IdleRich]

If Milner had scored, then Liverpool could even have won. Weird game. That first goal was even better than the third, for my money - what a pass, what a finish...

Barcelona-Ajax would be a fitting final though.

That first goal was great. The anticipation of Suarez made something out of nothing. Really, the guy is slightly overweight (at least for a top level player), he's not amazingly quick, I don't think he really has any physical attribute that others don't - but he has this unbelievable killer instinct for goal. Some goals you can moan about the defenders or whatever but that first one which really came out of a period when neither side was on top - in fact arguably Liverpool were shading it - was an unstoppable goal. The pass and the finish were just sublime. Liverpool had to say to themselves; you just have to accept that that was a moment of genius and we couldn't deal with it and we have to hope they don't produce more like that - and they did everything right, put it out of their heads and got more and more possession in increasingly dangerous areas, created better and better chances. Had more possession than Barca in the Nou Camp(!), got the crowd worried... and then failed to take their chances. With hindsight the Milner chance - which, you know I would have scored - was the turning point. A crucial miss and although the second goal was lucky in the way it bounced around, there is always that danger with a team that good. And then Barcelona did produce another moment of genius. And then Salah made that incredible miss which could have wiped that out and left a bit of life in the tie. Oh well.

 

[IdleRich]

I'm being unfair on Salah only mentioning that. His final ball was lacking at times but otherwise he totally lived up to his billing, tormenting that fullback, skinning him with embarrassing ease several times.

 

[IdleRich]

I think an honest Barcelona fan would recognise they got the rub of the green tonight... although of course an honest Liverpool fan should also recognise that Barca have such dangerous players they only need a sniff of that to destroy teams.

 

[version]

They were incredibly lucky not to concede. There is absorbing pressure and there is relying on one of world's best strikers to miss an open goal from 5 yards out.

They were lucky, but it's not as though they were allowing Salah tons of similar opportunities. You're talking about one chance. It happens. You can absorb pressure and still make mistakes.

The general point I was making was that Barca under Valverde tend to ease up in the second when they're leading then pick it up again somewhere around the 60/70 minute mark. They also switch to a 4-4-2 like they did tonight when Roberto moved into midfield and Semedo took over at right back. They're not as relentless as they used to be, they allow more chances and they can be a lot more conservative, but it seems to be a deliberate move on Valverde's part as the players can't press like they used to and they're a bit more resilient at the back.

 

[baboon2004]

That first goal was great. The anticipation of Suarez made something out of nothing. Really, the guy is slightly overweight (at least for a top level player), he's not amazingly quick, I don't think he really has any physical attribute that others don't - but he has this unbelievable killer instinct for goal. Some goals you can moan about the defenders or whatever but that first one which really came out of a period when neither side was on top - in fact arguably Liverpool were shading it - was an unstoppable goal. The pass and the finish were just sublime. Liverpool had to say to themselves; you just have to accept that that was a moment of genius and we couldn't deal with it and we have to hope they don't produce more like that - and they did everything right, put it out of their heads and got more and more possession in increasingly dangerous areas, created better and better chances. Had more possession than Barca in the Nou Camp(!), got the crowd worried... and then failed to take their chances. With hindsight the Milner chance - which, you know I would have scored - was the turning point. A crucial miss and although the second goal was lucky in the way it bounced around, there is always that danger with a team that good. And then Barcelona did produce another moment of genius. And then Salah made that incredible miss which could have wiped that out and left a bit of life in the tie. Oh well.

Agreed....though van Dijk should maybe have been less static on the first. While I love him as a player, all the crowing about 'best defender in the world' was premature, given that he hadn't faced Messi or Suarez. But in general, Liverpool can do little but concentrate on their misses, because you can't account for genius.

Yep, you would have scored the Milner chance, tis true.

From the first ten mins, I thought Salah was going to write his name all over that game - it looked like a rewind to last season. I think Liverpool still have a small chance in the second leg if they can go 1-0 up early on and get the crowd going. If they can then sneak a second by any means necessary, then Barcelona do wobble, as in Rome last year (plus that memory will be sharp for Barca).

Also, while I think Messi is the greatest who ever did it, then the hagiographic newspaper reaction today is testing even my patience. The idea that Messi never goes missing on the big stage is just not true...no-one can bend every game to their will. He just manages it much more than most. Plus hanging out with Suarez has introduced a cynical edge to his game (the excessive reaction to a foul, and sly smile to camera) that I really don't think used to be there

 

[IdleRich]

They were lucky, but it's not as though they were allowing Salah tons of similar opportunities. You're talking about one chance. It happens. You can absorb pressure and still make mistakes.

Sure I do get your point. I just thought that in the second half Liverpool were very good. They had a lot of the ball in dangerous areas and although the final ball was often lacking (or well defended) they still created enough good chances such that normally they would have got one or even two. You can call that bad luck or lack of ruthlessness - given that some of the best fell to Milner it's arguably the latter.

Yep, you would have scored the Milner chance, tis true.

!
Meat and drink to a finisher of my calibre...

From the first ten mins, I thought Salah was going to write his name all over that game - it looked like a rewind to last season. I think Liverpool still have a small chance in the second leg if they can go 1-0 up early on and get the crowd going. If they can then sneak a second by any means necessary, then Barcelona do wobble, as in Rome last year (plus that memory will be sharp for Barca).

Salah really troubled them every time, there was that great run almost from box to box but again the final pass (which was easier than what he'd just done) was underhit. But yeah, it's possible they will overturn it in the second leg... I reckon more likely, what happens is; loads of Liverpool pressure they get an early goal and the crowd gets excited, they are pressing for a second... and it breaks to Suarez and it's 1-1 and Liverpool need 5. But they knew they would probably need 5 so they pick themselves up nothing daunted... and then Barca score again.

Also, while I think Messi is the greatest who ever did it, then the hagiographic newspaper reaction today is testing even my patience. The idea that Messi never goes missing on the big stage is just not true..

As he stood over that free-kick I was thinking about how he doesn't have the same aura in the white and blue stripes. As the net billowed I was thinking how weird it is that he can make that happen for Barca whereas for Argentina he looks stressed as though the game is happening around him and he can't get hold of it. Of course these memories are selective though - I know he's been great for Argentina, it's just not in the games I've seen. Also last night for thirty minutes of the second half he couldn't get a touch... but no-one will remember that now.

 

[IdleRich]

Of course, football is a game of moments. You can say "He did nothing at all except for the four goals" and it can be true and yet meaningless. Reminds me of Nicolas Talleb talking about a trader who makes a million bucks a year, every year for twenty years - but one day he loses thirty million. And (Talleb says) people say "He was a good trader apart from that one day" - the point they're missing is that day is what he should be judged on, he lost more then than he made in his twenty good years, you judge him on the moment.

 

[baboon2004]

I reckon more likely, what happens is; loads of Liverpool pressure they get an early goal and the crowd gets excited, they are pressing for a second... and it breaks to Suarez and it's 1-1 and Liverpool need 5. But they knew they would probably need 5 so they pick themselves up nothing daunted... and then Barca score again.

As he stood over that free-kick I was thinking about how he doesn't have the same aura in the white and blue stripes. As the net billowed I was thinking how weird it is that he can make that happen for Barca whereas for Argentina he looks stressed as though the game is happening around him and he can't get hold of it. Of course these memories are selective though - I know he's been great for Argentina, it's just not in the games I've seen. Also last night for thirty minutes of the second half he couldn't get a touch... but no-one will remember that now.

I guess what you're describing is pretty similar to City-Liverpool in the CL last year. City almost went 2-0 (and the disallowed goal was possibly a refereeing mistake), but Liverpool's clinical counterattacks told in the end.

Also it might be unrealistic to expect Messi to be able to influence the whole game all the time, given where he plays on the pitch. It is possible to simply keep the baal way from him, given hard work and not a little organisation. Aside from Maradona, it's interesting to consider those few footballers who really have been able to elevate a mediocre team on their own - Messi has done it in fits and spurts for Argentina.

He's not in the same universe skill-wise of course, but there's an argument that Gerrard deserves plaudits for this. Istanbul certainly wouldn't be in Merseyside folklore if it weren't for him.

 

[IdleRich]

I guess. I mean there are lots of players who have, from time to time, taken a game by the scruff of the neck and dominated it. But yeah to do it in the Euro final is obviously harder than during a five-a-side in Finsbury Park (for example) and is rightly celebrated.

 

[baboon2004]

Could Gerrard do it on a wet and windy Tuesday night off Stroud Green Road? Probably not, let's face it.

 

[IdleRich]

I think he'd probably adjust eventually.

 

[version]

I think when it comes to Argentina, it's probably worth taking into account how much is expected of him at both club and international level and how many games he plays. He's been directly involved in something like 50% of Barcelona's goals since 08/09, he plays around 50 games a season and then he has to take on even more responsibility for the national team. It's a lot of work, even for a professional athlete, and it allows the opposition to really focus on him.

 

[IdleRich]

I think when it comes to Argentina, it's probably worth taking into account how much is expected of him at both club and international level and how many games he plays. He's been directly involved in something like 50% of Barcelona's goals since 08/09, he plays around 50 games a season and then he has to take on even more responsibility for the national team. It's a lot of work, even for a professional athlete, and it allows the opposition to really focus on him.

All true. I think also that Barcelona have a great team around him, better than Argentina do, plus he plays with them week in week out. Whatever the reason, he just doesn't have the same ability to change games with the same regularity as he does for Barca. That's not a criticism as such, I'm not saying that he ought to be able to, it's just a statement of how I see it.

 

[version]

It's weird, he seems underwhelming for the NT but then he's also their all-time top scorer and he's led them to three finals. He could still win the Copa América this year too.

 

[IdleRich]

Yeah, of course, for most people that would make him a national hero - but he's a victim of his own incredible success and high standards elsewhere. He's not most people. Also, yeah they did get to the WC final but it wasn't a vintage performance and it wasn't particularly due to Messi. And last WC they were kinda laboured... I mean, I guess they only lost to the two finalists but were quite well beaten I thought. I don't get why they prefer Higuain to Aguerro but that's another debate...

 

[version]

I'm curious as to what happens to the other players too, they all seem to drop a level or two when they pull on the shirt.

 

[IdleRich]

Well Higuain has scored a lot for them and I understand the loyalty in a way - but I think he's lost it now. Aguerro should be first choice, he's a fucking goal machine, but he seemed to only get cameos in the WC. For me though he'd be straight in the team, there is no-one I'd want more up front if I desperately needed a goal. Suarez maybe... or Cavani perhaps but Aguerro is up there.

 

[version]

I think they suffer from being spoiled for choice up front and struggling for personnel in every other position. They've had four or five of the best forwards in the world during Messi's time and the only really notable player in any other position has been Mascherano.

 

[IdleRich]

They've had some other good players I think (although I'll admit I'm struggling to remember them now) but at the last WC that seems exactly how it was.

 

[version]

Garay was good in 2014, but he seems to have fallen out of favour since then.