Roiling football blather

[baboon2004]

many quality players struggle to adapt to new sides, or national sides they very infrequently play in. It's only the true greats who can lift the quality/cohesion of a team that irregularly plays together.

 

[boombox]

many quality players struggle to adapt to new sides, or national sides they very infrequently play in.

England are the only team expected to qualify who didn't. The other groups went to type.

 

[IdleRich]

"many quality players struggle to adapt to new sides, or national sides they very infrequently play in. It's only the true greats who can lift the quality/cohesion of a team that irregularly plays together."

That goes some way to explaining why international sides aren't as good as club ones I think. But it's the same for every national side. How do Italy always win everything even when they haven't got the best team? They've certainly got the winning mentality.

 

[crackerjack]

Gerrard is amazing at his best. Needs a Makalele type though.

Yeah, they play for very, very good teams, but teams in which it may be difficult to discern the impact of English players as against foreign players. Either way, the 11/16 chosen can't play together as a team to save their lives - is that just lack of flexibility?

There is a definite lack of flexibility in English football. I remember watching Euro 2000 and being struck by how fluid the best teams were - you got the sense anyone could play in any position whereas our lot were only comfortable in their own designated area.

But we shouldn't overstate how bad England are (as opposed to how crap we were last night). With the players we have, QF should be the bare minimum.

 

[boombox]

How do Italy always win everything even when they haven't got the best team?

Buffon, Nesta, Cannavaro, Zambrotta, Gattuso, Pirlo, Totti, Del Piero, Toni. Top class players, top class team. The best team is the team that wins. That is why we play games.

 

[crackerjack]

Buffon, Nesta, Cannavaro, Zambrotta, Gattuso, Pirlo, Totti, Del Piero, Toni.

Del Piero is one of the most overrated players on the planet, Totti plays with an inconsistency that would embarrass Gerrard (the England one, not the Liverpool dependable) and Gattuso is just Robbie Savage with a beard and a proper haircut

The defence is class though.

 

[IdleRich]

"Buffon, Nesta, Cannavaro, Zambrotta, Gattuso, Pirlo, Totti, Del Piero, Toni. Top class players, top class team. The best team is the team that wins. That is why we play games."

What, always? I don't agree, you seem to be doing exactly what Baboon was complaining about before when people work backwards from the result. Are you seriously saying that if Carson hadn't dropped that one in the back of the net and England had got a draw last night that would mean that that hypothetical England are a better team than they in fact are?
Anyway, my point was that Italy usually have a good side with good players but they also have a way of doing well even when they don't, likewise Germany. Spain on the other hand, like England, always seem to underperform even when they have great players.
I notice you didn't reply to all the points that seem to demonstate that the English players don't play so well for England as for their clubs - why was that?

 

[boombox]

Totti plays with an inconsistency that would embarrass Gerrard

Totti was top goalscorer in European leagues last season, top for assists in Serie A, top for assists at the World Cup and in every single way a far superior player to Gerrard.

Del Piero was a brilliant player. Fair enough, not so much now.

Gattuso is Savage with a beard, talent and a treasure chest of medals.

 

[IdleRich]

"Totti ..... in every single way a far superior player to Gerrard."

Rubbish. In as much as you can compare a striker to a midfielder they are both world class - to describe Totti as "in every single way a far superior player" shows a strangely simplistic not to say misguided view of football.

"Del Piero was a brilliant player. Fair enough, not so much now."

Had his moments of magic for sure, struggled a lot with injury I guess, I didn't know he was still playing.

"Gattuso is Savage with a beard, talent and a treasure chest of medals"

I rate Gattuso highly, he's kind of like a more limited Gerrard really.

 

[tom pr]

Regardless of all this, Totti retired from international football about three years ago and Del Piero hasn't played under Donadoni.

What struck me about Italy was that in the build up to the Scotland game, there was talk of who they'd play alongside Pirlo and Gattuso in midfield; De Rossi or Ambrosini. Ambronisi got the nod, not because he's a better player than De Rossi (who's one of the best in Europe right now), but because he plays with Pirlo and Gattuso at club level. We need a coach who's prepared to pick the less popular player for practical reasons like those. It's for that reason I wouldn't mind seeing Carrick and Hargreaves play at the back of England's midfield, so long as they get enough games together at club level...

I'm sick of Lampard and Gerrard in England shirts. It's just one of those scenarios where people bang on about Lampard being invisible and Gerrard doing nothing but taking the ball off people and losing it, and you start to think they're exaggerating, but last night they played exactly to those descriptions.

 

[boombox]

What, always?

Well it is certainly a good, logical starting point.

saying that if Carson hadn't dropped that one in the back of the net and England had got a draw last night that would mean that that hypothetical England are a better team than they in fact are?

Obviously. England would be better with a competent goalkeeper.

I notice you didn't reply to all the points that seem to demonstate that the English players don't play so well for England as for their clubs - why was that?

They demonstrate no such thing. They play the same.

 

[tom pr]

I rate Gattuso highly, he's kind of like a more limited Gerrard really.

Limited's an odd word to use, when he's got most of the attributes that make Stevie Me great for Liverpool (tenacity, never-say-die attitude, so on and so forth - granted he doesn't have the shot and passing range, but that's why he's alongside Pirlo) but he's more mature, doesn't get caught out of position, and doesn't throw himself at the floor the minute he gets near a penalty area. He's a refined Gerrard.

 

[hucks]

I rate Gattuso highly, he's kind of like a more limited Gerrard really.

I'd take Gattuso over Gerrard every single time. He's reliable, and he knows his role in the team, unlike Gerrard who throws a huge strop every time someone loads better than him, like Alsonso or Mascherano, gets picked to play in the middle.

Last night was a real eye opener for me. Gerrard was appalling. His leadership is straight out of the Beckham school; lots of aimless running and Hollywood balls, to the detriment of any cohesion or shape. He's been rubbish for a few England games now, but apparently he wasn't fit. He was fit last night, and he was shocking.

 

[tom pr]

Obviously. England would be better with a competent goalkeeper.

Carson's perfectly competant; I don't blame him for dropping a howler when he's been thrown into his first competitive international in the deciding game of the group stages, behind a make-shift defence. I was glad he made those saves in the second half, because he doesn't deserve to be hung out to dry.

 

[boombox]

Rubbish. In as much as you can compare a striker to a midfielder they are both world class - to describe Totti as "in every single way a far superior player" shows a strangely simplistic not to say misguided view of football.

Scores more. Sets up more. Better touch. Better pass. Better finish. Simplistic but not strange.

In what way is it misguided?


Totti has only been a striker the last two years. So he is also more versatile than Gerrard.

 

[tom pr]

Last night was a real eye opener for me. Gerrard was appalling. His leadership is straight out of the Beckham school; lots of aimless running and Hollywood balls, to the detriment of any cohesion or shape. He's been rubbish for a few England games now, but apparently he wasn't fit. He was fit last night, and he was shocking.

There was an interesting blog on the Guardian's site about how Gerrard has always been better suited to the right, and Liverpool's best pairing in the middle is Mascherano and Alonso (and it brought up a great point: it was only when Gerrard moved to right back in the Champions League final that Liverpool stopped leaking goals; when you go back and watch it he's forever getting caught out of position in the first half). What really surprised me was the amount of replies from Liverpool fans saying they agreed, and were sick of him captaining the club.

Personally I adore any sort of backlash against Gerrard; I hate him and the working class hero schtick he tries to pull off. I always find it funny that the worst diver in the Premiership (okay, maybe alongside Drogba) is the England vice captain...

 

[hucks]

There was an interesting blog on the Guardian's site about how Gerrard has always been better suited to the right, and Liverpool's best pairing in the middle is Mascherano and Alonso (and it brought up a great point: it was only when Gerrard moved to right back in the Champions League final that Liverpool stopped leaking goals; when you go back and watch it he's forever getting caught out of position in the first half). What really surprised me was the amount of replies from Liverpool fans saying they agreed, and were sick of him captaining the club.

Personally I adore any sort of backlash against Gerrard; I hate him and the working class hero schtick he tries to pull off. I always find it funny that the worst diver in the Premiership (okay, maybe alongside Drogba) is the England vice captain...

All true, and I didn't get it till last night when I had my epiphany, mainly cos I had fallen for that schtick you refer to. Never again! Unless it's Rooney. I love Rooney.

 

[IdleRich]

Well it is certainly a good, logical starting point.

You honestly believe the best team always wins? How quaint.

Obviously. England would be better with a competent goalkeeper.

I'm gonna assume that you wilfully misunderstood that (as opposed to just being stupid) - my point is that in a given game there are moments that change it, such as, say, hitting a post or a dubious penalty being given. The thickness of the post can change the outcome of a game but does it also change the best team?

They demonstrate no such thing. They play the same.

I gave an argument, you just repeated what you said before, is that because you can't make an argument or there is no argument to be made or what?

"Limited's an odd word to use, when he's got most of the attributes that make Stevie Me great for Liverpool (tenacity, never-say-die attitude, so on and so forth - granted he doesn't have the shot and passing range..."

Think you explained why it isn't such an odd word really.

"I'd take Gattuso over Gerrard every single time. He's reliable, and he knows his role in the team, unlike Gerrard who throws a huge strop every time someone loads better than him, like Alsonso or Mascherano, gets picked to play in the middle."

Are they really loads better than him? I don't think that either of them can win matches and destroy teams like he can.

"Scores more. Sets up more. Better touch. Better pass. Better finish. Simplistic but not strange."

Gerrard can be the heart of a team. He wins games.

Personally I adore any sort of backlash against Gerrard; I hate him and the working class hero schtick he tries to pull off. I always find it funny that the worst diver in the Premiership (okay, maybe alongside Drogba) is the England vice captain...

Well, I've no real opinion on him as a person (ever seen Liverpool Steve in his Everton kit as a kid?) but he has rescued Liverpool almost single-handedly so many times. He's an awesome player and his goals and performances at crucial times speak for themselves.

 

[tom pr]

@hucks: It's been a gradual thing over the last couple of years for me, but last night just confirmed it. Two years ago you couldn't doubt his ability as a player. But he's slowly descended into a self-parody; this walking Roy of the Rovers impersonation that's so obsessed with the idea of himself as the local lad come good that he's turned into a spoilt brat, so desperate to win the big matches that he hinders his team mates in the process.

What struck me big time last season was that Essien was happy to play anywhere on the pitch for Chelsea, even in a cup final. Can you imagine if Gerrard was told he was filling in at centreback in a final?!

@IdleRich: What Gattuso lacks in shooting (not like he needs that anyway, where he plays) he makes up for ten-fold in other areas of the pitch. Like I say, he's a refined Gerrard. And the point about Alonso and Mascherano isn't that they're necessarily better players, but if Liverpool are to become a tight, consistant, title-winning team then they're best off with those two in the middle and Gerrard on the right where he can play his game without as many repurcussions.

Also, not trying to sound harsh but if you don't know Del Piero still plays football, are you really in a position to comment on Totti? He's playing the best football of his life, he's vital to Roma and he does win games on his own. He's another dislikeable one, but you can't knock the way he's played in the last couple of years...

 

[hucks]

Are they really loads better than him? I don't think that either of them can win matches and destroy teams like he can.

Maybe Mascherano and Alonso aren't loads better, but nor do their jobs involve winning matches all by themselves. Nor should Gerrard's come to think of it. Team game and all that.

Gerrard can be the heart of a team. He wins games.
He's an awesome player and his goals and performances at crucial times speak for themselves.

But what happens when these heroics go wrong? His attempts to win games by himself mean he ends up out of position, or not doing his normal job, such as closing down the Croatian player for the 3rd goal last night.

Given the right circumstances, I have a rant somewhere about how Gerrard's reputation is built on 15 good minutes in Istanbul. But now is not the time. And anyway, it just boils down to that sentence, repeated ever louder.