Inheritance Tax

mixed_biscuits

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Well consider two sons. One, the son of a poor man inherits nothing, gets a job and earns £25k a year which he lives on, dying finally with nothing. The second, the son of a rich man, inherits a million which he banks at 5% per year, he lives on £25k a year and grows his wealth by £25k in the first year and more in the next year as the sum he is earning interest on grows. The gap between him and the poor man has grown each year even though he hasn't lifted a finger - do you really think that this is something that exemplifies a meritocracy?

Perhaps not, but bear in mind that whoever passed on the money accumulated extra merit points in the first place.

When I give out house points as a teacher, I have no say as to their progress through the 'rewards economy' of the school thenceforth. They could be passed on to another house for favours for all I know. As Vimothy says, it's none of my business what happens to them.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2007-02-01a.450.4
 
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vimothy

yurp
Yes, but before you said that someone who earned a lot of money had "merited" it - now you are saying that that is meaningless. I'm just trying to find some consistency in what you say.

You do "merit" it, but no one has decided or agreed that you do - at least, not in my imaginary country. You don't win races by committee.

It's not your money once you've given it to your son is it? How about if you see it this way? It is indeed your choice to give the money to your son, once you have done so it's out of your hands, when he receives it HE pays tax on it, that's none of YOUR business.

Ok - perhaps we should put all money donated to charity in a big pot while the government decide a scale for who is entitled to what, based only on their judgement.

Anyway, since you can't keep your money after death, I don't think that's a fair analogy.

Yes, but the point is it's much easier for him to make a greater contribution to (the wealth of) society because he started with more. Surely if you wanted a true meritocracy you would oppose that.

No, because in this instance what you want is a state solution to the problems as you see them. "These people don't deserve their wealth because it wasn't earned, it was inherited. The poeple who earnt it deserved it, but it is not up to them what they decide to do with it, it is up to us" (meaning whichever department takes control of it).

And of course, I want to government to have less money to throw around, not more.
 

vimothy

yurp
Good Samizdata post:

I once was quite attracted by this idea of taxing inheritance to encourage some sort of 'level playing field', but I am no longer so sure. For a start, if an economy is expanding rapidly, it is hard to see how the presence of rich kids really demoralises less fortunate people. The economic process is not a zero sum game. Arguably, a sense of anger ("I'll show those rich bastards") may even spur the latter group to work incredibly hard to overtake the former. Rich kids may find they have to work harder, too, to impress people in certain ways who resent their wealth, and so on (I have seen this in action).

If a society is a closed one and the state controls most, if not all, of the key parts of an economy, then the existence of a small but influential case of rich people able to pass on their wealth without hindrance might also be a problem, but the solution to that is not to tax inheritance, but shrink the state.

A final point worth repeating over and over is the old example provided by the late Robert Nozick, the Harvard philosopher. He famously trashed egalitarian attacks on inherited wealth by rejecting the model that egalitarians use of society as a justification for their views. He said, if memory serves, that egalitarians tend to view life as a closed circuit, like an athletics track, and that if a person inherits a fortune, it is like an athlete starting a race 10 yards ahead of his fellows. But there is no fixed end to which people in society are racing, as they are in a 100m sprint. Instead, society is simply the short-hand term we use to describe the network of relationships between people exchanging things with each other to get what they want. To say that if I inherit my father's dashing good looks or wealth means I have an "unfair" advantage over X or Y is meaningless in the context of an open society.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Ok - perhaps we should put all money donated to charity in a big pot while the government decide a scale for who is entitled to what, based only on their judgement.
Anyway, since you can't keep your money after death, I don't think that's a fair analogy."
Well why did you make it then?
(and the "well you pay tax then" "argument" is pretty tired by now isn't it?)

"No, because in this instance what you want is a state solution to the problems as you see them. "These people don't deserve their wealth because it wasn't earned, it was inherited. The poeple who earnt it deserved it, but it is not up to them what they decide to do with it, it is up to us" (meaning whichever department takes control of it)."
Not really, I don't "want" anything, I'm just pointing out that you can't square the circle of having wealth (discrepancy) representing merit and having no (or small) inheritance tax. The two are mutually exclusive and yet you are arguing for both - if I want anything I want you to recognise that.
 

vimothy

yurp
Well why did you make it then?
(and the "well you pay tax then" "argument" is pretty tired by now isn't it?)

The government has no right to decide who deserves what, neither do you. De-centralised activity "decides" (not an individual discrete intelligence of course) these things. After death, my money is no longer my money and it should be given to the state for redistribution - that's the implication of your argument. I don't think that's fair because I have earned it - i should decide how it is redistributed, not the government.

Not really, I don't "want" anything, I'm just pointing out that you can't square the circle of having wealth (discrepancy) representing merit and having no (or small) inheritance tax. The two are mutually exclusive and yet you are arguing for both - if I want anything I want you to recognise that.

Is this the heart of the disagreement here? It's still meritocratic. There is no fixed sum of wealth, just like Nozick says. Even if people inherit wealth (as they do today), if I work all my life and build a personal fortune, that fortune represents my contribution to society. That's true if I inherit massively or not at all.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
The government has no right to decide who deserves what, neither do you. De-centralised activity "decides" (not an individual discrete intelligence of course) these things. After death, my money is no longer my money and it should be given to the state for redistribution - that's the implication of your argument. I don't think that's fair because I have earned it - i should decide how it is redistributed, not the government.

But surely it should be a bit of both. you get to decide because it is, after all, your money. The government gets to decide because that money will have some impact on the country it is elected to govern.
 

vimothy

yurp
But surely it should be a bit of both. you get to decide because it is, after all, your money. The government gets to decide because that money will have some impact on the country it is elected to govern.

Well, that's one way of looking at it. I'm don't trust the government to be able to use the money wisely.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"After death, my money is no longer my money and it should be given to the state for redistribution - that's the implication of your argument. I don't think that's fair because I have earned it - i should decide how it is redistributed, not the government."
Like I said, you do decide how it's distributed - it's just that people who receive it pay tax on it. Seems perfectly fair to me.

"Even if people inherit wealth (as they do today), if I work all my life and build a personal fortune, that fortune represents my contribution to society. That's true if I inherit massively or not at all."
But do you deny it's a lot easier if you inherit massively?
 

vimothy

yurp
Like I said, you do decide how it's distributed - it's just that people who receive it pay tax on it. Seems perfectly fair to me.

More accurately, I think that I decide who most of it is redistributed, the government decides how its portion is distributed.

But do you deny it's a lot easier if you inherit massively?

I don't know. How easy is it to make a fortune? Still probably pretty hard. Perhaps, as with unearned resource rents, it even has a negative impact on "fortune growth". It would be nice to see some stats on social mobility at the "top of the ladder" to see if people who do inherit wealth, however we're defining that, go on to make masses more money as a result. But even if they do, I still don't think that's a convincing argument in favour of inheritance tax. Lots of people have unfair advantages. You might be a lot cleverer than me. I might be really, instinctivley good at management, or maths, or anything. I might be lucky and walk into a high-flying job by accident (I have a friend who has done exactly that, recently - good luck to him).
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"More accurately, I think that I decide who most of it is redistributed, the government decides how its portion is distributed."
The point is that the government only gets a share when it leaves your hands. There is no sense in which you're double-taxed, it's the receiver who gets taxed on an unearned windfall. You keep arguing it from the point of the giver (as does everyone) even though the giver is not really affected (and, in the case of inheritance tax, is dead) - I wonder why that is? I think it's because you can't make any case from the point of view of the receiver.

"I don't know. How easy is it to make a fortune?"
Oh come off it, if you've got a load of money it's easier to make more. Over the past twenty years all you have had to do is buy property, it's pretty simple. Conversely, having no money makes it hard; suppose I identified an amazing investment opportunity tomorrow, to take advantage of it I would have to borrow money (or at least sell my flat) either of which would take time, cost more money and and involve a greater personal risk than just taking it out of my huge ready cash account.

"You might be a lot cleverer than me. I might be really, instinctivley good at management, or maths, or anything."
But surely, these are the things that you describe as skills that deserve reward in your productive meritocracy - you would never describe inheritance in such a way.
 

vimothy

yurp
The point is that the government only gets a share when it leaves your hands. There is no sense in which you're double-taxed, it's the receiver who gets taxed on an unearned windfall. You keep arguing it from the point of the giver (as does everyone) even though the giver is not really affected (and, in the case of inheritance tax, is dead) - I wonder why that is? I think it's because you can't make any case from the point of view of the receiver.

Definitely got to go home now. But I think this point just shows the gap between our two ways of thinking about the world - I wouldn't make the case from the receiver and I shouldn't need to. Just like the New Labour people won't make the case for inheritance tax from the point of view of the giver.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Interest is nothing more than the opportunity cost of saving money, as you surely know. The poor man is no less deserving than the rich man, but nevertheless, the rich man's contribution to society is greater, because his money is used by banks to generate more money than the poor man generates.

Shouldn't we also talk about other un-deserved inherited advantages? What about the fact that we are more technologically advanced than other societies?

Vim: Surely we could take the money from the second man that he inherited and put it into the control of a government backed investment corporation, and invest it entirely the same way, accruing the same benefit to society (ie- capital for business) if not more so (ie- interest earned is funnelled back into said investment rather than creamed off by some idle git.

At the same time as we could talk about other un-deserved advantages, (ie- primarily the educative advantages of certain parents over others, entirely independent of the nature of the child...) do you at least acknowledge that this particular unearned advantage is to be minimized?

It also seems curious to give rights to the dead. Providing we acknowledge that they have ceased to exist I see no reason why their wishes whilst they were still alive ought to be given some kind of moral and legalistic primacy over the wellbeing of the living.
 

vimothy

yurp
Vim: Surely we could take the money from the second man that he inherited and put it into the control of a government backed investment corporation, and invest it entirely the same way, accruing the same benefit to society (ie- capital for business) if not more so (ie- interest earned is funnelled back into said investment rather than creamed off by some idle git.

Why shoulden't we do this with all wealth? That's an important one.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
There are obviously arguments for doing so Vim. However what really concerns me is the giving of rights to the dead in a secular society! It is from this problematic that the argument for heavy or total inheritance tax arises. From there follows the idea that there will be large sums of money which come into the control of government (which obviously you dislike)- and how best to dispose of such funds. I was merely giving a Vim-friendly example of what might be done. Given that in our little thought experiment the second chap is entirely lazy and takes no active role in managing his inherited capital, merely presumably handing it over to a third party investment organization to take care of it, I fail to see what the issue is here-> asides from the fact that you would view this as putting too much power in the hands of the state. Although if the state themselves merely collected the money and directly handed it over to external investment houses, and funnelled all dividends and interest accruing from such activities back into the same funds (on the basis that they invest in the UK, and as such this kind of process would benefit the whole of society)... I fail to see how this is massively objectionable in comparison to merely allowing the lazy individual to do pretty much the same thing.

We might say that if the money was earned by the indolent gentleman himself whilst he himself was living, then he has a right to do with it as he wishes... but that once he becomes deceased he loses any right to determine what occurs with wealth accumulated in his lifetime as he no longer exists as a legal entity... and his wishes, becoming null and void as his self-hood does, cannot be prioritized over the well being of all (ie- both to maximise the potential for the wealth to do good in society, and to prevent unearned advantage building up, in so doing encouraging everyone to earn their wealth within their own lifetimes- although of course as you have said there remain other forms of undeserved advantage)
 
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Inheritance tax just seems like another unnecessary and unfair tax ... An increase in a tax on death (inheritance tax) would make death less appealing - like increasing a tax on cigarettes makes buying them less appealing. Simple.

Yes, mein fuhrer, you want to make death more appealing ...

[Note to the idiot who was asleep during his lectures on demand elasticities in Economics !01 class: Increasing taxes on cigarettes [primarily a regressive a tax on the poor] makes them simultaneously less affordable and more appealing.]

Heil Vomithy!
 

vimothy

yurp
Yes, mein fuhrer, you want to make death more appealing ...

[Note to the idiot who was asleep during his lectures on demand elasticities in Economics !01 class: Increasing taxes on cigarettes [primarily a regressive a tax on the poor] makes them simultaneously less affordable and more appealing.]

Heil Vomithy!

You know what was meant HMLT - as the price rises the demand goes down. As death becomes more expensive more people try to avoid it.

[Why are we having this pointless conversation? Can't you find something with more important to disagree with?]
 
You know what was meant HMLT - as the price rises the demand goes down. As death becomes more expensive more people try to avoid it.

You'll have the entire medical profession demanding that all undertakers immediately increase the price of funerals to $Infinity; that way, everyone will be able to avoid death Infinitely!

[Why are we having this pointless conversation? Can't you find something with more important to disagree with?]

Your 'conversations' always become pointless whenever the irrationality of your market-theological dogma [your sacred, infallible, invisible, magical Market serving the same structural function as God, oblivious to the blind, viral death machine that is capitalism. Oh wait, I forgot: you're not oblivious, you want to make death more appealing!] is exposed, with sudden dismissively pompous mumblings about displacing the subject onto something more 'important' ...

"The meek shall inherit the Market, the dead (rich) shall inherit the Earth" What's left of it ...
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
interesting article here:
http://business.guardian.co.uk/houseprices/story/0,,2189734,00.html

"These days, Britons, whether of the left or the right, are generally thought to be meritocrats, in favour of social mobility, of people making their own way. But, in fact, Britain is one of the least socially mobile rich countries, and its class boundaries have been steadily solidifying ever since Margaret Thatcher was elected.

In [] focus groups on inheritance tax, [MORI] found, "People weren't actually very receptive to the idea of equality of opportunity. The younger participants didn't really get the idea that equality had anything to do with life chances or the distribution of wealth...What seems to have come through in Britain, post-Thatcher, is not so much a meritocracy as a feeling that what you get is what you're entitled to."

...One of the findings of White's focus groups, which fits with other research in the same area, was that "the people least likely to pay inheritance tax are more likely to be hostile to it than people in higher social classes"."
 
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