the disappearance of the black band

[Poisonous Dart]

I don't agree...

i wasnt pretending to be right. i was just trying to make up a reasoning that was just as stupid as yours. This claiming rock as a black thing is just stupid. Yes i know, BB King, Muddy Waters, Jimi Hendrix, still the truth is most rock is white, and it was influenced by both black and white music, as most music is. You claim that for instance the beatles were making black music. They started as a skiffle band, how much more white can you get. Most of their music i know strikes me as utterly white (and dull)

This claiming that Rock is BLACK is just not helpful (and untrue)

Rock N' Roll is BLACK MUSIC. Whether or not there is a pronounced Black influence or participation in now in 2007 is not the point. Black contributions or influence on the Rock genre NOW (in 2007) are almost negligible (BRC notwithstanding). Regardless of how many Black bands there are (or aren't) ROCK 'N ROLL WILL FOREVER BE KNOWN AS BLACK MUSIC. Recognize and realize it. No music scholar or music historian in their right mind would argue this fact so why would you?

I'm well aware of skiffle music..I also know that many of the kids that started out in skiffle bands lived in environments in the UK that exactly mirrored the existence in working class industrial towns like Detroit, Chicago, Memphis, and the like. This is why this music (created by mostly Black people) resounded so much with these young men who soon started to make music emulating these records that were imported across the water but by putting their own original/unique stamp on it. No matter how far removed from that fact it doesn't change the truth or the history of the music...Sorry.

Jazz has very few Black participants or contributors now...would you dispute that Jazz isn't Black music? All music is universal and for everyone so calling it what it is....BLACK MUSIC shouldn't strike any fear in you or be off putting in any way. Anyone can love or play or enjoy any genre of music they like or whatever speaks to them personally so don't misunderstand me.


Bottom line: Rock N' Roll is, was, and always will be (say it with me now) BLACK MUSIC.

Continue.

One.

 

[dominic]

Given the resurgence of the live band and the importance of concerts (a consequence of the structural changes in the music business), might we not see the reappearance of black bands?

i'm thinking the same thing

also, though it may not be apparent from my remarks upthread, i rather like a lot of the new "afro punk" or black indie bands -- much more than i do other contemporary indie music

and certainly middle class blacks are best positioned to recover the musical legacy (i.e, guitar chops) of previous generations -- i.e., surely there must be lots of old black guitar players sitting around who could give lessons to the youth

to avoid misunderstanding ===== i'm not advocating a return to the blues or 70s funk -- rather, i think the whole computer music (hip hop) revolution has run its course, and that the way forward will necessarily involve blacks re-learning how to play trad instruments in combination with new machines -- and that once this happens, there may once again be greater exchange b/w black and white music . . . .

 

[gek-opel]

Hip Hop is created from the influence of ALL MUSICAL FORMS. That's why we say Hip Hop is universal.

Mwahahah... this makes you sound like you speak for some kind of dogmatic cult.

 

[dominic]

R
Bottom line: Rock N' Roll is, was, and always will be (say it with me now) BLACK MUSIC

this entire thread was supposed to be in reference to the items that i linked at the very top -- had people checked the links, we probably could have avoided much of the o/w predictable bickering

 

[Poisonous Dart]

Kinda sorta

Mwahahah... this makes you sound like you speak for some kind of dogmatic cult.

Contributors to the worldwide culture called Hip Hop=We

Dogmatic cult? Not so much.

One.

 

[Gavin]

alright, returning to the original question as you want


bands (white and black) became less relevant in the nineties because new music technology (samplers, synths, computers) didnt fit the band format that well. White bands continued to exist because there is some kind of nostalgia for the band format in white rock tradition. (see Blur and Oasis with their Kinks Stones revival thing, and see indie today, all nostalgia) There is no real tradition of black bands, thats why you always hear the same six names (hendrix, funkadelic/parliament, sly, living colour, fishbone, bad brains). Because there is no tradition, there is no nostalgia for black bands either

I was thinking about this yesterday and I think I agree with your assessment: the existence of "bands" is just a blip in black music, and seems to owe its existence to rock tropes (in my usage, rock is distinct from rock 'n' roll). My question is, why did the band format find more traction with whites?

Also, partially agree with the assessment of indie as a kind of nostalgia for the band era, but why does white youth have this nostalgia and black youth don't -- nostalgia doesn't seem to be a major factor in black music the way it is in white music.

 

[nomadologist]

-- nostalgia doesn't seem to be a major factor in black music the way it is in white music.

this is part of why i like it so much

 

[dominic]

alright, returning to the original question as you want

There is no real tradition of black bands, thats why you always hear the same six names (hendrix, funkadelic/parliament, sly, living colour, fishbone, bad brains). Because there is no tradition, there is no nostalgia for black bands either

i'm not sure if that's the case

slave, kool and gang, ohio players, brass construction, brick, south shore commission -- lots of bands in the 70s

of course i don't know my music history well enough to separate the more independent bands from bands that were more producer- and studio-musician- driven

i.e., winfield had his stable of undisputed truth, rose royce, etc

miles, sun ra -- jazz model of changing roster of musicians following charismatic band leader

AND IN ANY CASE, i do not necessarily think the independent band model is crucial

what's crucial is broad-based return to mastery of trad instruments by black music makers

i wouldnt know why black bands returning would save the future of music

well, my proposition is (1) that dialogue b/w black and white music might again flourish is both sides were using similar devices -- whether trad instruments or modern tech

and given that (2) modern computer tech music now seems exhausted -- i.e., hip hop is dead, electronic dance more or less dead --

then (3) best way forward seems to be some return to trad instruments in combination with new tech -- this is especially the case b/c as borderpolice notes upthread (4) changes in industry are making live performance more important than record sales as way for musicians to earn income

of course the reason for privileging the dialogue b/w black and white music is if you think such dialogue is the central motor of progress in pop music -- and at least in the past it has, though it perhaps will not be in future

Do we want sweaty, funky funk jam bands again?

there's no reason to think, first, that black musicians wouldn't embrace a 3-to-5-minute constraint on song length; nor is there any reason to dismiss bands that have the talent and prowess to "stretch things out" for a 20-minute jam -- it all depends, doesn't it?

and, again, my perhaps fanciful misguided hope is that such development as mapped above would produce new genres of music -- not a simple return to 70s funky fun jam bands

 

[Benny Bunter]

Great thread this...can I just mention AR Kane. They were something of an anomaly weren't they? I'm not sure that I would have guessed they were black if I hadn't known already. Their sound suggested a heavy influence from the likes of Cocteau Twins, Sonic Youth and J&MC - about as 'white' as it gets really.

Not really sure where this fits into the debate, but perhaps if there were any decent, innovative indie bands of the same stature around nowadays we might have a better exchange ideas going on. Until white indie music pulls its socks up and start coming up with more original, innovative stuff there's really no reason why black artists should be interested.
No more Sly and the Family Stones, no more AR Kanes...

 

[nomadologist]

Dominic, you could write a book about this topic. Seriously. There's a lot to get into here. Lots that needs to be said about these things.

 

[nomadologist]

locked up and smack that arent really slow jams...

urite. i like his slow jams better tho

 

[nomadologist]

Also, partially agree with the assessment of indie as a kind of nostalgia for the band era, but why does white youth have this nostalgia and black youth don't -- nostalgia doesn't seem to be a major factor in black music the way it is in white music.

maybe because they are outside of our capitalist libinidal economic deadlock?

 

[gumdrops]

dominic said pretty much what i wanted to say (i too hope maybe the fact hip hop is dead etc will maybe mark a return to live music but my feeling is maybe it will just leave room for a new beat-reliant music to come along, rather than motivate a return to trad instruments). the tradition is there, you just have to look for it. sure, everyone knows theres p-funk, sly and the family stone etc, but thats just cos journos and rock people like those bands more than all the others like new birth, ohio players, isley brothers (who go back well before the 70s), EWF, commodores, jacksons, rufus, maze, zapp, the time, mar keys, chamber brothers, etc etc etc most of whom are from the 70s/early-mid 80s, yeah, but i think thats cos there was more of a pro-independence, lets-work-together/self-sufficiency vibe in black american music at the time, from groups like the isleys having their own label to clinton getting multi-label deals for all his groups, etc etc. and even if its not 'bands' per se, theres plenty of live ensembles who played on all those records and toured etc. just cos they werent 'bands', doesnt mean that doesnt count.

 

[Gavin]

maybe because they are outside of our capitalist libinidal economic deadlock?

Sort of.... black youth culture is like the engine required to run it, and black culture is built on subverting the (racist, capitalist) status quo while maintaining cultural continuity. There's a good deal of nostalgia in older black folks though.

 

[Gavin]

maybe nostalgia is something for people who are better of. Poor people dont want to look back. And maybe that is why black music isn't progressing that fast anymore, as black people nowadays are better of in material terms than they used to be, and, as a result, are getting nostalgic too.

I think the material aspect is contentious. Poor white people have plenty of nostalgia, and it's not clear that black people are doing better than they were a generation ago, although some certainly are.

Thinking further, there actually is a good deal of nostalgic hip hop of course -- Kanye strikes this note, although he's attempting some hackneyed futurism in his latest stuff that just doesn't work for me. Again, it might be an age thing: the "back to the golden age" rappers are all late 20s and older, the rappers making new-ish sounding stuff (snap, etc) are teenagers.

i'm very much afraid that it all won't happen again, and the music of the future is musicals, commercials, soundtracks to games and ringtones.

This is the future for the corporate music, at least until they figure out a new model. It doesn't provide the essential social functions of music though, and I'm reasonably hopeful that something interesting will emerge from the vast global music underground as the majors collapse.

 

[nomadologist]

Kanye strikes this note, although he's attempting some hackneyed futurism in his latest stuff that just doesn't work for me.

I hated "Stronger" but I have to admit I enjoy hearing "The Good Life" sometimes--prolly because it sweats Ed Banger/Justice stuff so bad, and I love that stuff.

 

[Gavin]

The whole album is like Kanye superficially sucking up his hipster DJ's record collection. Watch a segment of rap increasingly aim for the Pitchfork demographic.

I'm generally disappointed with hip hop's synth work lately -- presets are ok for drum programming, not for textural elements! It drags down "Flashing Lights," my favorite song in the Kanye album, but completely dooms "Stronger." Not to mention all those heavy Jeezy-type productions. Timbaland is the exception here, although I'm probably in the minority in that I prefer his circa-2001 Missy stuff to his current Nu-New-Romantic stylings.

 

[Benny Bunter]

That track that samples Can's 'Sing swan song' on Graduation is nothing short of a travesty.

 

[nomadologist]

seriously? jeez

 

[Poisonous Dart]

This is a good question...

Black music is all about the "brand new sound/brand new shit" which s often to the detriment to the music. This is why 50 Cent was a world beater in 2002 and he's struggling to go Platinum in 2007. Jay-Z could do NO wrong...that dude retired and came back 3 years later and all of those kids that worshipped Hov back when the "Black Album" dropped call him an old man now. I hate that about the popular Black music culture.

Some people think that underground Hip Hop is a bit too damn nostalgic, always wishing things were still the way they were pre 1997. It hurts me that these kids don't care to hear the SOS Band, Atlantic Starr, The Deele, Midnight Star, The Time, Club Noveau, Ready For The World, Full Force, Loose Ends, etc. It also kills me that Timbaland and The Neptunes are pretty much using this old school music's sound and aesthetic to make hits in 2007. The Black community has a serious problem with generation gaps (in some cases chasms).

I grew up listening to all types of music and all types of Hip Hop in the 80's. It was all just MUSIC to us kids. Once the record labels and marketing departments took every and put it into neat little niches and genres that freedom was gone forever...I fuckin' WISH that kids could experience what it was like for me to listen to urban radio play Run DMC's "Sucker MC's" and Duran Duran's "Reflex" back to back like it was nothing? Never happen today. Damn shame some Black kid would get ridiculed for liking Cold War Kids or Bloc Party and the only way for them to be accepted would be to become part of a clique/subculture with a name some magazine (or marketing company) gave them.

Makes me wanna puke...I wish Black kids would embrace the MUSIC side more and pick up instruments but first they need to have some level of real music appreciation taught to them first like I had growing first to do so.

One.