Impact of smoking ban on clubs

[Mr. Tea]

What is undeniably ludicrous, though, is the fact that no exemption has been made for shisha bars where the whole point of going there is to smoke. I mean, that really is equivalent to banning alcohol in pubs.

 

[KernKätzchen]

Not at all, I'm not referring to the existentialist universe of 'free will' (nor to the foundation of traditional theism - ie that there is a personal, transcendent God who performs magic and possesses free will), but to the pomo capitalist construction of 'personal choice,' [essential to capitalism's functioning] which entails rationalizing some interiorised, psychologistic interpretation of the world over one which emphasizes the real of social and political power, the latter actually determining such 'personal' choices. And we can indeed think without the concept; in fact, we must do so, if we wish to avoid reason giving way to mysticism.

[How is personal choice 'technically' a myth?]

I was equating personal choice with free will (hence why I criticised you for reducing the concept to it's New-Labour-apologetic sense. But I see now that you understand 'personal choice' in the latter sense so I'll treat it that way.) I was raising the possibility that free will may be a myth in that even though it may not - technically - exist, it certainly serves us well to believe it does. But let's stick to personal choice and not go down that road now...

Why would you want to - theoretically - separate them? What interests - other than power - does that serve (such a schizophrenic failure of cognitive mapping)?

Can you explain what you mean by a schizophrenic failure of cognitive mapping?
The reason I would want to theoretically separate them is to preserve the distinction between intention and action, between thought and its consequences. The smoking ban may have been instigated by the same people who are now pushing the health privatisation agenda, but it may still be considered to be right thing to do, given the application of *other* criteria for 'right action' than the (as you rightly point out) deeply suspect notion of personal choice currently being peddled by governments and businesses worldwide. You can accept the rightness of one without necessarily accepting the rightness of the other - I do, and this is why I say they are theoretically separable. Don't you think it's better to consider a proposition in terms of the likely consequences for those whom it affects than to base your judgement solely on who thought it up and why? I'm not saying the latter isn't important, but I do maintain that there is more than one way of looking at things. I defended the smoking ban before in terms of rights - the right to breathe clean air, the right to not be harmed - the flip side being the responsibility of smokers to not harm others around them. Alternatively, you could conceive of it as the maintenance of safe public spaces in which no-one has to physically suffer just for being around other people. Sure, you might also phrase your argument in terms of personal choice (as I, stupidly as it turned out, did upthread) - but only as a means of appealing to currently fashionable ways of thinking. The arguments themselves are more solid than that.
Anyway, you need to justify allowing people to continue smoking in public places rather than just attacking my defence of the ban... Can you do that?

 

[Guybrush]

I have long been of the opinion that snus is going to conquer the world one of these days. It’s already omnipresent in Scandinavia, and the tobacco behemoths are allegedly keeping a firm watch.

Snus is manufactured and consumed primarily in Sweden and Norway. A version has recently been introduced into the United States and is being test-marketed by two major American tobacco companies as well as one Swedish company. [...]

After the Norwegian government in June 2004 implemented a strict indoor smoking ban in public places, sales of snus sky-rocketed and several new variants of the product were put on the Norwegian market. When the Swedish government did the same thing in June 2005, sales of snus also increased dramatically.​

 

[nomadologist]

We've had "snus" in the U.S. for hundreds of years, it's called "chewing tobacco"...or "chew"...

 

[Gavin]

We've had "snus" in the U.S. for hundreds of years, it's called "chewing tobacco"...or "chew"...

It's a bit different... comes in a pouch I'm on a Camel junkmail list (got two packs out of it!) and they've sent me ads for it. You don't have to spit which is the worst part of chew.

 

[Guybrush]

We've had "snus" in the U.S. for hundreds of years, it's called "chewing tobacco"...or "chew"...

Yeah, but as Gavin points out, it’s not the same thing. It’s also worth noting that snus has become really popular only recently, particularly as a superior substitute for cigarettes, suggesting they could prove a valuable revenue-stream should cigarette sales flounder on similar markets.

 

[nomadologist]

It's a bit different... comes in a pouch I'm on a Camel junkmail list (got two packs out of it!) and they've sent me ads for it. You don't have to spit which is the worst part of chew.

Ahhhh, I wondered... Yeah my brother drove me back from Thxgiving and had to chew because his girlfriend doesn't allow smoking in her car. It was just disgusting how often he had to spit brown juice into a bottle...

 

[nomadologist]

It'd be cooler if they reintroduced snuff...then the possibilities for mixing stimulants would be endless!

 

[mms]

they should burn tobacco in pubs like incense.
not fags just strong backky, that would be amusing.

 

[Gavin]

Ahhhh, I wondered... Yeah my brother drove me back from Thxgiving and had to chew because his girlfriend doesn't allow smoking in her car. It was just disgusting how often he had to spit brown juice into a bottle...

I had a disgusting acquaintance who spat into clear 20 oz soda bottles and left them around his apartment for days.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Snuff doesn't need 'reintroducing', it never went away. Not in ole London Taahn anyway, I often pick some up when I pop out fer me bottle o' tuppenny gin and a half-ounce of opium...

 

[Mr. Tea]

I had a disgusting acquaintance who spat into clear 20 oz soda bottles and left them around his apartment for days.

Was he trying to brew up a nicotinised version of jenkem, do you think?

 

[Gavin]

Was he trying to brew up a nicotinised version of jenkem, do you think?

If we had convinced him huffing shit made him hard, he would have done it in a second. Regrettably the thought never occurred to us.

 

[straight]

i think theres been a few snuff revivals the last few years, i remember one from about 5 years back in a red bull style package and recently post smoking ban my girlfriend (who works for a marketing company) was given a snuff product aimed at the club market which she might be involved in promoting. it was sold in a rotating coke tooter stlye package which i can see making it quite hard to get into clubs in the first place. im finding it hard to believe a chewing tobacco revival is on the cards, as if you could actually find a more disgusting way to imbibe nicotine.

 

[fokse vektaire xeven]

Apologies for the usual crappy youtube fanvid...but this thread needs this

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The full grinding horror of the ban is only just setting in