What's Left? - How the left lost its way.

[hundredmillionlifetimes]

Normal Mailer just died--just saw the obit today...

Let's put this Mailer shit to rest, yeah?

Jeez, Nomad! His death was precisely what prompted me to mention him in the context of a death-penalty discussion [I titled the post 'Norman Mailer (1923-2007)'].

But the discussion here has long passed on from Mailer, as you might have noticed, to an idiot poster refusing to concede that he might be wrong ...

 

[nomadologist]

I figured this was why. I'm not sure Noel understood why you focused on Mailer. I think it was all a miscommunication, but II can't really be bothered to read throug the whole exchange (it's rather boring.)

Ah well, I'm in Brooklyn now, I will not be bothered or called to sit round on a computer much, so the threads will be left clear for the more apostolically liberal among us. I will be busy getting fucked and tben leaving my apartment. Probably killing puppies and cursing at grannies while driving hummers three blocks to vote for whichever candidate is pro-legalization of street drugs. You know, stuff like that!

 

[swears]

Marxian thought has always assumed that the breakdown of the pretenses of humanistic culture would yield a reality that was more responsive and coherent than that of humanistic illusionism. Yet behind the mask of humanism there exists not the truths of materialism but the nightmare scenarios of logic and determinism. There emerges a crystalline world responsive only to numerical imperatives, formal manipulation, and financial control.

-Peter Halley

In the negative part of Professor Hayek's thesis there is a great deal of truth. It cannot be said too often — at any rate, it is not being said nearly often enough — that collectivism is not inherently democratic, but, on the contrary, gives to a tyrannical minority such powers as the Spanish Inquisitors never dreamed of. Professor Hayek is also probably right in saying that in this country the intellectuals are more totalitarian-minded than the common people. But he does not see, or will not admit, that a return to 'free' competition means for the great mass of people a tyranny probably worse, because more irresponsible, than that of the State.

-George Orwell


Over here we always knew the Labour Party was our enemy just as much as the conservatives.

-Stewart Home

 

[swears]

So, like I guess these guys are saying that sometimes the left is bad, yeah?

But the right is like, still worse.

 

[matt b]

this highlights the stupidity of defining 'the left' as a homogenous group- orwell was clearly of 'the left'- a self proclaimed conservative (small c) anarchist, yet he's slagging off another part of 'the left'. wtf?

 

[gek-opel]

Indeed and it is this kind of desire for a homogeneity of "left" political identity which drives morons like Nick Cohen into their pointless little diatribes (along of course with his bizarre desire to metastasize his own mid-life crisis swing to the right into a diagnosis of the world- relativistically he's remained the same, it is the "left" which has changed haha...)

 

[vimothy]

Depends on whether you think Nick Cohen is 'reflecting' what's really there or engaging in the construction of a very large straw man.

Yes -- and I guess that would depend on whether or not one stopped reading this thread with this post ...

So here's Blair, summing up exactly the left's attitude to other societies:

They have their culture, their way of life.​

Which is surely Cohen's point, and, as if it didn't need any more proof, here's ChineseArithmetic again to ram it home after only half a page:

How about a regime that kills people in the electric chair?​

 

[vimothy]

this highlights the stupidity of defining 'the left' as a homogenous group- orwell was clearly of 'the left'- a self proclaimed conservative (small c) anarchist, yet he's slagging off another part of 'the left'. wtf?

But isn't this what leftists love most -- disagreeing with one another?

And anyway, this is also true for Cohen: a leftist slagging off other parts of the left. And, of course, there are other leftists who broadly agree with him: Hitchens, Geras, Kamm, Aaronovitch, Kouchner, Berman, etc, depsite still being leftists.

 

[vimothy]

In the negative part of Professor Hayek's thesis there is a great deal of truth. It cannot be said too often — at any rate, it is not being said nearly often enough — that collectivism is not inherently democratic, but, on the contrary, gives to a tyrannical minority such powers as the Spanish Inquisitors never dreamed of. Professor Hayek is also probably right in saying that in this country the intellectuals are more totalitarian-minded than the common people. But he does not see, or will not admit, that a return to 'free' competition means for the great mass of people a tyranny probably worse, because more irresponsible, than that of the State.

-George Orwell

Though, happily, Orwell was quite wrong about that.

 

[gek-opel]

But isn't this what leftists love most -- disagreeing with one another?

And anyway, this is also true for Cohen: a leftist slagging off other parts of the left. And, of course, there are other leftists who broadly agree with him: Hitchens, Geras, Kamm, Aaronovitch, Kouchner, Berman, etc, depsite still being leftists.

Really? (some of them) are avowedly of the left... but pretty much sound in almost every sense as if they are centre-right. Is this a bit like those albums being tagged as "metal" cos the guy who made them used to be into black metal, but now sounds pretty much exactly like a 3rd rate MBV? Methinks so.

 

[nomadologist]

Really? (some of them) are avowedly of the left... but pretty much sound in almost every sense as if they are centre-right. Is this a bit like those albums being tagged as "metal" cos the guy who made them used to be into black metal, but now sounds pretty much exactly like a 3rd rate MBV? Methinks so.

hahahaha

 

[noel emits]

I think it was all a miscommunication,

I see now that it appears the other poster assumed I was describing our society as 'sane' when I was actually criticising a policy that I saw as contributing to the madness. So yeah, miscommunication.

 

[nomadologist]

I see now that it appears the other poster assumed I was describing our society as 'sane' when I was actually criticising a policy that I saw as contributing to the madness. So yeah, miscommunication.

For some reason, the way you phrase some of the things you say in this and a couple other threads confuses me, too--sometimes it sounds like you're defending the opposite viewpoint instead of your own. I think it's because rhetorically you give a lot of ground to the "other side" before you get to the business of criticizing? Not trying to be critical myself, here, I've just noticed this...

 

[noel emits]

For some reason, the way you phrase some of the things you say in this and a couple other threads confuses me, too--sometimes it sounds like you're defending the opposite viewpoint instead of your own. I think it's because rhetorically you give a lot of ground to the "other side" before you get to the business of criticizing? Not trying to be critical myself, here, I've just noticed this...

No, that's interesting. Maybe I do, I'll have to think about it.

I did assume that it was clear from what I said, and maybe other posts, that I would never in a million years describe our society as 'sane'!

Assumptions lead us astray don't they. Same as if you assume people to be stupid that's what you'll tend to see. Although often it's a fair assumption

Thing is though on forums like this we have to use some short-hand, we can't explain our entire thinking in every post! It's about trying to meet people half way, making a little effort to receive their signal. With reference to what you said about my rhetorical style, I believe the most fruitful discussions are about exchanging ideas and playing them off against each other. If it's just about point scoring and trying to prove the other person wrong you won't learn anything and you won't have a very nice time either.

 

[vimothy]

[Is this a Xasthur reference?]

Really? (some of them) are avowedly of the left... but pretty much sound in almost every sense as if they are centre-right. Is this a bit like those albums being tagged as "metal" cos the guy who made them used to be into black metal, but now sounds pretty much exactly like a 3rd rate MBV? Methinks so.

Who in that list is centre-right? Only Hitchens and Aaronovitch are possibilities. And in Hitchens case, it's impossible to properly tell, IMO, since he is, in his own words, a "single-issue voter" and only interested in the War on Terror. I suspect that the only reason you describe these people as centre-right is because they disagree with you on this very subject, which perhaps gives lie to the notion that the left is "not monolithic". (Although, apparently this fact was not a problem when we were discussing Nick Land's opinions on the left).

Maybe your analogy holds true -- but I doubt it. I think it's more like fans saying that Dimmu Borgir is not Black Metal because they think that they've sold out.

 

[gek-opel]

[Is this a Xasthur reference?]
Who in that list is centre-right? Only Hitchens and Aaronovitch are possibilities. And in Hitchens case, it's impossible to properly tell, IMO, since he is, in his own words, a "single-issue voter" and only interested in the War on Terror. I suspect that the only reason you describe these people as centre-right is because they disagree with you on this very subject, which perhaps gives lie to the notion that the left is "not monolithic". (Although, apparently this fact was not a problem when we were discussing Nick Land's opinions on the left).

Maybe your analogy holds true -- but I doubt it. I think it's more like fans saying that Dimmu Borgir is not Black Metal because they think that they've sold out.

I was actually referring to Alcest...

 

[vimothy]

I was actually referring to Alcest...

Fucking great band, though. Not into them?

Have you heard any of Neige's other stuff - Pest Noire (trad raw BM with lots of solos) or Amesoeurs (awesome cross between Alcest and Pest Noire)?

 

[gek-opel]

Fucking great band, though. Not into them?

Have you heard any of Neige's other stuff - Pest Noire (trad raw BM with lots of solos) or Amesoeurs (awesome cross between Alcest and Pest Noire)?

They're ok. Not heard his other stuff yet. My issue with the whole MBV metal scene is that most of it ends up being waaay too lame and not metal enough... with the possible exception of The Angelic Process (but they've just taken relatively conventional gothish metal and put it at the bottom of a massive reverb chamber...)

 

[vimothy]

They're ok. Not heard his other stuff yet. My issue with the whole MBV metal scene is that most of it ends up being waaay too lame and not metal enough... with the possible exception of The Angelic Process (but they've just taken relatively conventional gothish metal and put it at the bottom of a massive reverb chamber...)

Le Secret was more BM than the album. You might like Amesoeurs, since they retain more of a BM edge. Still if you want to listen to something Beherit or Black Witchery, then that's what you should do.

 

[hundredmillionlifetimes]

Really? (some of them) are avowedly of the left... but pretty much sound in almost every sense as if they are centre-right. Is this a bit like those albums being tagged as "metal" cos the guy who made them used to be into black metal, but now sounds pretty much exactly like a 3rd rate MBV? Methinks so.

Vim's over-exposure to iraq-war metal has finally snapped all remaining synaptic-firing possibilities between his Right (wing) Brain and his now-schrivelled Left Brain. Once a left-winger always a left-winger, especially after moving to the right. Aren't U2 still a 'punk band'?

"‘Philanthropy is like hippy music, holding hands,’ Bono claimed. ‘Red is more like punk rock, hip hop, this should feel like hard commerce.’