lots of good stuff in this thread. hard to pick but this:
Right- but how many of these people (be they fundamentalist Islamic or Christian) have a functional understanding of their religion as we would conceive of it...?
Most of them take it as an identity, constituted in terms which have little to do with religion, (or at least on obviously selective and politicised readings) and as such how useful is it to criticise on the basis of religion? Rather it would be better to talk of a specific group under specific social and political conditions. ... The interesting element then is not the religious at all, but the political. Which is all the less convenient for those of an even vaguely neoconservative bent as any analysis of the political demonstrates repeated Western partial culpability (in terms of acts and omissions). Not that this "lets the bad guys (sic) off the hook" but rather that it explicates the messiness and complexity of situations which many are all too happy to paint in big primary colours, like a toddlers drawing of geopolitics- grotesque simplification and demonisation of the irrational other. Rather than seeing them in precisely the same terms as ourselves, under similar conditions. This does not necessarily equal equivelance, but rather a commonality, instead of what amounts to prejudice no matter what one terms it... (ie- whether it is racism or religious prejudice or xenophobia is a matter of legalistic taxonomy, not a mater of morality)
Respek for the Gek. well put.
and this:
Yes, exactly. And isn't it also the case that the foreclosing of the political under late capitalism is precisely what has given rise to the post-modern racism? ... the abject repression of the political is immediately reversed in its most archaic form: as racist hatred of the Other (on both sides, needless to say: it's an inter-exciting fundamentalist hyperspiral), so rendering powerless the secular position of rational tolerance and politicized analysis.
for the vast majority it's far too difficult and scary to have a real look at the political events which lead up to current situations. and much easier to "paint in primary numbers". to who ever was saying that i was unjust to force Tea into a defensive position -- this "paint by numbers" was my initial problem with Tea posting the link -- it was a leap of assumption on my part, but based on previous experience, and his did turn out to be exactly what i assumed his position would be (before the tune was somewhat changed).
anyway...
i've been digging in a history of Islam by
Karen Armstrong. and i recommend it to people that are quick to criticize the Islamic faith itself, rather than the grotesque distortions it has assumed under extreme circumstances, or its repeated use by political forces, or the many many other ways with which it is misunderstood and misrepresented. i'm only into the first chapter, and already tons of good stuff.
for example, a few fun facts:
Muhammed was a liberator of women from previous barbaric practices. he did not make them wear veils or stay in a special part of the house. he was against segregation, and pro equality. it is not until several generations later that his followers started
imitating the christians at the time, and started these practices.
Islam started as a very practical way of life, which frowned upon self indulgence in contemplating too much purely abstract theocratic ideas -- it stressed that the most important thing was Jihad, or living according to the way God intended for us to live, which is giving to the needy and protecting the weak, which was with justice, peace, and compassion.
Muhammed also stressed respect for the older faiths (that he knew about), namely Judaism and Christianity, for these older traditions are founded on the same divine truths that Islam is based on. and that it was not until after the establishment of Israel in mid 20th century, and war crimes were repeatedly committed against Palestinians, that Muslims started hating jews.
i encourage people to find out about what a thing has meant to millions of people world wide for 1400 years before making childish umbrella statements about it based on what they saw on TV about it last week.