Reynolds on planet-mu

[bassnation]

The context in which most people take E these days actually encourages the active resistance of all those 'positive' aspects of the drug. It's frowned upon and the game is to suppress the empathy. In fact I think that was always something of an illusion, what it really offers is a sense of self-acceptance. In a communal setting this gives the impression of PLUR because it's essentially people being ill at ease with themselves that leads to the usual hassles and agro.

i can agree with that, but that revelation in no way invalidates my argument. does anyone realise how valuable that knowledge is?

and that is just one component of the drugs effect, but probably the most important. when i used to turn relationship or people issues round in my mind on e, you can remove your self from the equation (or at least it feels ike that). incredibly liberating, the clarity, the insight - what other drug even comes close to that? none of those things were either fake or transient, for me at least.

Edit - In a weird synchronicity that D-REAM song was just used on Radio 4 as I type this. That was an E anthem that was adopted by New Labour for the '97 election. Do you need any more graphic illustration of the values that are really encouraged the Xperience?

this is highly tenuous and i don't really feel it has anything to do what i've experienced.

 

[noel emits]

In musical terms, I suppose it would be a bit like deciding not to like Black Sabbath and Motorhead because they inspired a genre that eventually gave rise to nu-metal...

No, it's just an illustration of how easily co-opted the values of the E-generation really were. I'm being slightly facetious and taking the point to extremes but the use of the sentiment of that (admittedly awful) song in such a way shows the disparity between the utopian 'rave dream' and the reality of what came next nice and stark like.

Of course you can use drugs in different ways - some people here are really down on pot (man) but I believe it can be extremely valuable used in some ways. I think it's a wonderful thing. What we're talking about here are the macro effects though.

 

[noel emits]

I think most people are of the opinion that what Ecstasy seemed to offer in those heady days turned out to be a cruel lie. We won't be fooled again.

Don't get me wrong, I love the stuff and wouldn't deny anyone the experience but that's the vibe isn't it?

 

[bassnation]

I think most people are of the opinion that what Ecstasy seemed to offer in those heady days turned out to be a cruel lie. We won't be fooled again.

Don't get me wrong, I love the stuff and wouldn't deny anyone the experience but that's the vibe isn't it?

i don't really care how many people have that opinion. this is so subjective as to be an unwinnable argument. besides does everyone really, really think that rave culture, ecstasy etc produced nothing worthwhile or lasting? for a start most of the music treasured by this forum came out of it. what about the explosion of creativity? what about all that art? just because people have burnt out or binged on it to the point where they doubt it was ever good doesn't make it so. the battle was won so conclusively that people can't imagine what the uk music scene would be like if ecstasy hadn't hit these shores. alright, admittedly moving the goal posts here, somewhat, but still.

 

[swears]

the battle was won so conclusively that people can't imagine what the uk music scene would be like if ecstasy hadn't hit these shores. alright, admittedly moving the goal posts here, somewhat, but still.

I hate all that PLUR shite, but I think you're proper OTM with that last point there.

 

[Mr. Tea]

besides does everyone really, really think that rave culture, ecstasy etc produced nothing worthwhile or lasting?

Exactly. It's just like the cynicism often displayed towards the counter-culture of the '60s; yes, for a lot of people it was just an opportunity to get stoned, make self-indulgent music and shag lots of hippy chicks under the aegis of 'free love', but it's unfair not to see all that as just a part of a period of really huge social change that saw the birth of wide-scale anti-war and environmental movements, the modern feminist movement, gay rights, the end of apartheid in the southern US...to say that counter-culture 'failed' because there is still war and racism is to willfully ignore the good things that came with it, too.

 

[noel emits]

i don't really care how many people have that opinion. this is so subjective as to be an unwinnable argument. besides does everyone really, really think that rave culture, ecstasy etc produced nothing worthwhile or lasting? for a start most of the music treasured by this forum came out of it. what about the explosion of creativity? what about all that art? just because people have burnt out or binged on it to the point where they doubt it was ever good doesn't make it so. the battle was won so conclusively that people can't imagine what the uk music scene would be like if ecstasy hadn't hit these shores. alright, admittedly moving the goal posts here, somewhat, but still.

Heheh. Ecstasy has been responsible for some fucking awful music too. Ahem.

It's not an argument though. I'm not arguing with you or anyone over the value of your experiences. Just having a look at the state of play now I suppose.

But if we are talking music I think that's really a spurious argument anyway because obviously something else would have happened and there's untold fantastic music from so many places and eras that is more than the equal of just about anything produced by the post-rave electronic dance music milieu. But that's just my opinion.

 

[continuum]

When ecstasy became available to the public back in the eighties it revealed (in my mind) to people what a sham society and democracy was. How the people in power use these mechanisms to essentially control the masses and make themselves more powerful and rich. While on e and comfortable with oneself and others it is patently obvious. Rave culture was essentially a huge psychotherapy experience and when the people in power clocked this they shut it down quick.

Better to keep people in the dark so they can continue they're private school squabbles on an international scale with events like 9/11 etc back through the rest of history. It looks like they have organised a nice recession for us this coming year. In order for this shit to keep on going everyone has to be scared out of their minds all the time and utterly confused which wars on terror, demonising muslims, "you're either with us or against us" type stuff does nicely. Everyones read 1984 and knows all this - its all very simple and within the public realm.

What is complicated is changing this so we don't end up nuking the whole planet for our children. The media is all part of it - keep everyone believing in capitalism and acting selfish. Darwin is god for these people. "If im ok then everything is ok". When this way of thinking casues death and destruction as it does every so often just blame it on someone else. Its fucking sick.

No wonder people are uneasy with themselves.

 

[Martin Dust]

When ecstasy became available to the public back in the eighties it revealed (in my mind) SNIP

You are joking, aren't you?

 

[continuum]

You are joking, aren't you?

no???

 

[noel emits]

i don't really care how many people have that opinion. this is so subjective as to be an unwinnable argument.

By the way, when I say most 'people' I am talking about 'ravers'. It's a different cultural climate I feel.

 

[noel emits]

No, that's pretty deep continuum.

I think you're right, there definitely does come that kind of political revelation from direct experience of other possibilities. It's undeniable even if it's not exactly expressible.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I'm really not sure what Darwin has to do with any of this.

For many of the most dangerous people on Earth, God is God*.



*as noted by Juno Reactor.

 

[continuum]

Sorry - it was a bit of a wild ramble re-reading it....

It's difficult to express exactly what I'm getting at without sounding slightly mad lol

 

[Martin Dust]

to say that counter-culture 'failed' because there is still war and racism is to willfully ignore the good things that came with it, too.

It did fail for the most part tho, many key players went on to be "the man", Felix Dennis for example. It failed in the same way punk did, everyone went out and bought a uniform - completely missed the point.

 

[bassnation]

It did fail for the most part tho, many key players went on to be "the man", Felix Dennis for example. It failed in the same way punk did, everyone went out an bought a uniform and completely missed the point.

yeah, i mean our current crop of leaders is from that generation and look at what they've done. bloody baby boomers. but soon come a generation of ravers running things, and i have no doubt it will be as awful as the boomers. age brings cycnism and former firebrands become the establishment. having said all that i refuse to accept that it has to be that way and i'm not planning on mellowing out one iota. time will tell.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I can see where you're coming from, 'nuum, but I think it's a step too far into conspiracy-theory territory to claim that recessions are "arranged" - the global economy is far too complicated for any one person to understand in its entirety, and too powerful even for the US to direct this way or that entirely at its will. Though that's not to say there won't be people who'll benefit from a crash, as there always are.

 

[Martin Dust]

Sorry - it was a bit of a wild ramble re-reading it....

It's difficult to express exactly what I'm getting at without sounding slightly mad lol

I was passing comment only on the first line (no pun intended), if anything I think E made people even more complacent.

 

[Mr. Tea]

It did fail for the most part tho, many key players went on to be "the man", Felix Dennis for example. It failed in the same way punk did, everyone went out and bought a uniform - completely missed the point.

But what would the world - alright, the developed world - be like if it hadn't happened at all - the same as it is now? Worse? Better?
I don't know (and who does?), but I can't imagine it being much better, put it that way.

 

[continuum]

I can see where you're coming from, 'nuum, but I think it's a step too far into conspiracy-theory territory to claim that recessions are "arranged" - the global economy is far too complicated for any one person to understand in its entirety, and too powerful even for the US to direct this way or that entirely at its will. Though that's not to say there won't be people who'll benefit from a crash, as there always are.

I agree. Think I'm (as usual) exaggerating for effect..